feldor
i prefer macdonalds then tofu! 
so what time is it? mac time… :eek:
come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com
Strings
Its nice to get some confirmation of the interpretations I have of the art. Common ground.
One point to add, in the advanced patterns, you learn different “strings.”
You can’t be taught, you can only learn…
Sanjia, with your experience, I suspect you’ll find it an interesting journey…
SM, my two bits? Chuck Fat Wan taught CLC the 4 maybe 5 patterns we all know about.
If Pak Mei really existed, he was the teacher of the teacher of the teacher of CLC, so perhaps Mid 1700’s, which is consistent with the time of the coming of the Manchus. I, personally, don’t believe in the 5 elders fairytale. I think that perhaps even Pak Mei is simply an Icon for Taoist as opposed to Buddist stylists. You really want to believe in the Man, but as yet nobody can verify his existance beyond fairytale, or so I’m told. Perhaps he was the abbot of a Taoist temple? Who knows, everybody has a different story that they are sure is the real one…
What other components were integrated? Hey, I read HB Un, so I know only the common knowledge, Lei Gar, Hung, Lung Ying, etc. Which patterns are which, you got me!
Ling Jow Lin Que is Dragon, for sure.
Ng Yang is “different” more like the “4”
Sam Mun Ba Qua is “different”
Then again, each pattern is a lesson in itself, you’d expect them to be different…
There are two salutes for opening patterns. One is with the low strike (i.e. Sek Sze), the other is just the salute on both sides (i.e. Sa Mun Ba Qua), perhaps this indicates something??
What was made up, what was passed on?
Well, what he didn’t learn from the monk was picked up somewhere, perhaps developed together with Lam Yew Gwai? Perhaps integrated from his extensive early training.
I dunno, what do you think? You have much stronger knowledge in this area than I, for sure.
No matter where they came from, they have become Pak Mei. Its more than the 'moves." Perhaps that’s why it takes so long to learn…
[This message was edited by Yum Cha on 10-31-01 at 03:48 PM.]
Yum Cha
Very well said.
Yum Cha, thanks for attempting to discuss.
Why would I know ?
I like your attitude and I agree with many of your comments,
ok
lets start before a bit :
Lum Yuen & Lum Haap learned from Hoi Fong (thats his nickname).
Hoi Fong taught many in the “East River” area.
Lei Ga, Lum Ga, Chu Ga, Chou Ga…
two outstanding individuals were -
Lum Yuen to Lum Ga (Lum Yu Guai)
Lum Haap to CLC
Learned a Hakka art commonly referred to as “Sam bo toi”.
Lum Yuen developed “Sup Lok Dong” from “Sam Bo Toi”
Lum Haap developed “Gau Bo Toi” from “Sam Bo Toi”.
to be continued later 
time!, still at work
shi chan long
yum cha and shaolin master
what about the finishing salute? does that count?
come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com
Shaolin Master
Are you talking about people that Hoi Fong taught in the East river or kung fu styles Lei Ga,Lum Ga ,Chu Ga ,Chou Ga, what is Lum Ga and is Chou ga the same as Chow Gar Southern Mantis.I asume Chu Ga is Chu gar Southern Mantis?
FT, hehe:D (it does to some it seems).
firehawk, it is said that those “styles” evolve from Hoi Fong’s teaching. Now before you ramble note that the surnames are just that so there are more than one style with the same name. (ie. there are at least 3 Lee ga to my knowledge, but my teacher said that he had seen 5 different ones…so there you go even more confusing)
TO CONTINUE -
the period of Hoi Fongs teaching (which originated at Fujian Shaolin (Gau Lin San theoretically) it is said, based on a form that Fujian lineages call San Jin) was around 1850-1860 AD.
CLC was injured as everyone knows when young and the doctor was none other than Lum Sek. Most would then acknowledge “Sek Si Sup Ji” from this origin (all other Sup Ji’s were a derivative thereof or added later).
Sidenote -
“Jek Bo” as everyone is most likely aware was based on Gau Bo Toi and then evolved into slightly different versions but all with the same concept. (the undelying concept resides in gau bo toi, jek bo, sup lok dong …and is sam bo toi)
Lei Ga was another influence (TBCont’d)
Finishing Salute
Isn’t the finish the same in the lower patterns throughout? I thought so, even in YKM, from memory. In the latter 4 it is different, but common to the four.
I think the salutes carry a good clue, because they don’t get changed through interpretation as they are simply salutes, so to speak…
What are the salutes like in Lei Ga, Lum Ga, Chu Ga, Chou Ga and Lung Ying?
SM, thanks for the comments. While people may disagree, you have obviously done a lot of research and your opinion must always be considered.
You also know a lot of patterns, and I was hoping for your reference point on the salutes.
You reckon Gau Bo Toi came from another source (Lum Haap) than the monk Chuk Fat Wan? Interesting… It explains the Hakka link, but goes against published history, for what little that is worth. Anybody concur, or have similar understanding?
Perhaps wrongly, I’ve suspected that Hakka origins and Taoist Temple origins were separate…but not exclusive of each other. I’m still learning about the Hakka people and their influence.
I’m a believer that Kung Fu travels via the Man, not the style, and that the style is the shadow of the Masters achievements.
Styles change too much over the generations. Weak styles can become strong with a masterful practitioner. Strong styles can die for want of good students or a good teacher. Popular styles can become diluted by the mediocre.
In these modern days, I reckon we can never achieve or understand the mastery of the Old Ones, Smith and Wesson took care of that. Commercial concerns have too much influence. With the exception of FT and a few others, most people have day jobs that aren’t Kung Fu.
Our mastery will be of a different nature, to simply hold the style isn’t enough, all the great masters added something.
and that brings us around in the circle to where we started…
Thats why I honour my Sifu, and worry less about where something came from or who does which patterns than making training regularly and working as hard as I can.
sorry for losing the thread…too much tea
unfortunately salutes often change with the inheritor. (ie…with the teacher, environment and retrospect).
In our Lei Ga we practise there isn’t any salute, in another I saw o’seas it is similar to Hung Gar.
How’d you know I am familiar with many patterns? I don’t know that many BM as my lineage is a bit old. You guys have ten empty hand, whilst I only have six
I am not consumed with salutes (which have lost much of their meanings due to dilutions and needs throughout time) as much as the actual content.
EAZ
The “continuos 4 horse” form was created by Tang Hue Bac (Chang Wai Bok).
The lotus form was created by Lai Kwai, not the Pak Mei Lai Kwai but by the Hung Gar Lai Kwai. There were two famous Lai Kwai in Vietnam. The Hung Gar Lai Kwai was legendary for his iron hard bridges in Vietnam. Many Pak Mei schools in Vietnam adopted this form.
I do not know how Tang Hue Bac died, will let you know if I find out.
I don’t think that Tai Chek Cam had wooden dummy forms, I think its just techniques practised on the dummy.
Sorry, I do not not know what is Ly Kinh. My teacher does not use Vietnamese terms when he talks to me.
BTW, I have contact with a Pak Mei practitioner who is also from the Vietnam lineage via Tai Chek Cam. His version does stress the 5 animal theory and he does practise the lotus form also.
consolidation
So Gentlemen,
It appears we have a source for the “unique” vietnamese patterns, and an explanation of the Hakka influence on CLC. Thanks for the ‘good oil’ lads. Don’t stop now.
Salutes, well, SM, whom I believe has a wide ranging exposure to several Shaolin MA, doesn’t find a thread there worth mentioning, so they may be a “dry hole” so to speak… Then again, he is Shaolin, while the salutes may be Taoist…
I’ll concur with SM’s statement on Jik Bo.
There is another Vietnamese Pattern we don’t do, Dan Jing, or Dan Ging, or something like that. It is mentioned in some of the HK schools, any knowledge to share on that one folks?
Another question, the well known “Sek Si Sup Ji”. Often refered as the “first” pattern. YKM does Sup Ji Kuen, we do Sek Si Kuen, and the two are different. YKM does the same “Sek Si”, only 4th in line.
What is “Sek Si Sup Ji?”, I’ve heard it referenced as such elsewhere as well, is it more like Sek Si Kuen, or Sub Ji Kuen, or neither?
The YKM Sup Ji is, I’m told, taught in Chinese High Schools, the Army and other “generic” situations. Also in YKM lore, the first 3 and the last 3 are YKM, not PM. FT, can I get an “Amen?”
This leaves the heritage of Say Mun Ba Qua, Sa Mun Ba Qua, Day Sut and Ng Yang still open. Correct?
Sam Mun Bagua - Extension/development/alternator of Sam Mun , which was from CLC’s earlier Lei Ga Practice.
Dai Sart - again from Lei Ga (but some say the later studies of Lei Ga, apparently CLC studied once and swapped on the second time)
Do u mean Ng Hang Mo or Ng Ying (by Ng Yang)?
Sek Si Sup Ji = 1 (others are mods it seems)
Note : there is Seung Geng as well as Dan Geng.
as there is Meng Fu Ha San as well as Meng Fu chut lum …now in HK.
yummy,what explaination is that of hakka influence?what from these knob heads that don’t even practice hakka pak-mei? :rolleyes:
keep guessing m@sturb@tor
Hakka influence
SM,
Ng Yang, is supposedly translated to 5 Animals, or 5 ways, probably Ng Ying?
Do you know the Vietnamese Sek Si? How different is that to Sek Si Sup Ji?
Seung Geng as well as Dan Geng, where do they come from?
Do you agree that the old way of doing the patterns is much simpler and shorter than the new ways taught Kowloon and HK?
Sui Fuw,
In my own knowledge there was a hole, amongst many, that left me wondering how a style, proportedly carried through the Taoist Monks, could also be carried by a racial/cultural group.
Were Hakka Taoist? Were the monks Hakka? The Hakka Pak Mei in Holland came from CLC, that added interest. My two senior Si Di are Hakka as well…
The explanation that the Hakka “influence” came through the earlier training of CLC in the aforementioned styles seemed to explain the relationship.
I don’t think it is the same as “Hakka Pak Mei” which you explain as a separate lineage/style.
Any comment on the old way versus the new way, in terms of simplicity?
As you are reserved with information, and I respect your attitude, the conclusions I draw are for myself only, and based upon the available information, I’m not writing any books. We have our secrets too.
Perhaps that’s why FT calls us the “Dark Side”
secrets
usually its a secret when you dont know something ..hahahaha hmmm secrets dont advance ethics also i guarentee that everything we do its found in many other styles!
hold back information to students and give it when ready but to tell a students its a secret and maybe 10 years you will get it is wrong.
what do you guys think?
come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com
FT, agreed.
oh, Yum cha problem about “taoist” concept.
Juk Fat Wan was always wearing “Buddhist robes”
and the temple he resided in was Buddhist. [so I heard but what would I know].
Re : " in terms of simplicity?"
the old way sometimes seems simple but there are intricacies that cannot be seen (oooh secrets.nah). Though they are shorter.
Ng Ying - I think only YKM have it or at least it is not of direct CLC teaching.
Vietnam Sek Si - sorry I don’t know it.CannonFist does
Chuk Fat Wan
You make an interesting point SM, confoundedly interesting…
I’ve seen the one picture, a painting I believe, from the HB Un book, but I wouldn’t know. I’ll take your word for it. That brings us back to the salute, which is decidedly different from the Buddist “hand clenching a fist” salute…
What do you know about the “Alleged” Ghong How, or Hong How temple, where CLC supposedly learned?
In Guangzhou somewhere?
RE: the intricacies in the simplicity, well, nice you noticed…