Fighting "en garde" stances for Pak Mei

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Just wondering if the Pak Mei stylists have a favourite ‘en garde’ stance?

I have been working through a few,

1. the western kickboxing/boxing style, higher stance. (doesn’t work for me).

2. the deep, low stance, shoulders rolled, with one extended tiger claw, with phoenix fist tucked into the crook of the elbow. Looking just over the top of the tiger claw. Weight forward.

3. A less deeper, but still deep stance with both arms extended to the point of having just a minimum bend in the elbow, with hands slightly staggered, about a hands length apart.
   Open hands invite a center attack, closed hands more defensive. Weight only slightly back of centre to bring opponent in closer.

I’ve found 2 is better for going in under an opponents guard, more power but less mobility.
While 3 is better for handling agressive attacks due to better mobility. Both protect the groin and legs from sweeps effectively. Both offer the stability to withstand a clash, bridge and finish.

I often move between the two, alternating footwork in the “domination” stage.

Anybody else got a favourite, or an alternative, or comments?

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just an opinion

I would have to say that whatever the height of the stance, weight is evenly distributed. This is because power generation is linked to this (reverse spiral to center). The actual height in combat depends on level of practitioner and tactic or specific technique employed, TTFC,…

As to position of arms, I start prudently with your n°1, and if I gain bridge (physically or mentally) and have confidence, I can then lead opponent.

Once again, just an opinion.

[system]

No locked stance!

I think for starters you limit yourself by being “en garde” with locked stances. You’ll need to unlock before moving which could be too slow. Only lock when striking !!
Remember “If you don’t attack I don’t defend”, which suggests not being locked in any particular position but relaxed. If some-one is outside your striking range (which includes kicking range) there is no reason to be in position .

Of course it does depend on the situation, sometimes having your hands in an obvious defensive position gives your apponent time to be more causious ( assuming we’re talking about a street situation).
I’d agree with Yum Cha about setting a trap, having hands open and up giving the impression you “don’t want trouble” but in fact gives you bridging area.
Set positions can leave you too tense to react quickly, sounds kinda " Bruce Leeish" with the concept but I have to agree with him there.

[system]

eaz

equal wt. on lt/rt means u must unweight 1 side before u can move. might b ok if u r fighting old ladies

[system]

Locking and Posing

So much of this is personal choice and experience, I appreciate everyones opinions. Its nice to see what other Pak Mei practitioners think, as this is a very individual element of Pak Mei combat.

Remember, I’m talking about en garde position, the square off, not the attack. Attack, well, we have to leave that to our training, it’s all there in the system. Balance, weight, positions, power…

I agree, and have learned through experience that you don’t lock into position, and you don’t “pose”. That goes without being said, I would think…

This is so important , to keep moving and leading the movements of your opponent. Up, down, forward, backward (but only slightly), alternating footwork… It keeps you moving and ready to react, it confuses the opponent, and is the initial phase of Domination where you lead the opponent to begin reacting to you, as opposed to you reacting to them…

Part of my weight forward/backward technique is to confuse your opponent as to my postion (especially kickboxers and headhunters) while maintaining a balanced foundation. It helps me to draw the opponent in for a power move that they can’t back step away from. I hate chasing, I prefer to invite them in, bridge, clash and finish.

In street confrontations as opposed to matches, its a whole different story, I’d never “show”. Street stance is both hands open out front in a peaceful defensive posture that invites a frontal centre attack, the easiest to defend and counter attack, for me at least…
…and don’t forget the leading foot turned in to position the knee to protect the groin…lots on nut kickers on the street…

EAZ
So, are you saying you keep your elbows bent at around 90 degrees? Do you keep the inner guard up near your face as well?

Are you fighting “headhunters” or “Stylists?” What is your favourite bridging technique? Soi Que?

Biu Ji,
When outside of range, a relaxed posture is cool, agreed. The arms held outward are not tensed. Quite often I use Bing Choi or Deng Choi to attack the opponents arms and hands from this outstretched position. Limb Destruction… short power… and the ability to avoid the same…

Its a water and stone thing, sometimes you must be the stone, sometimes the water, and the skill is in knowing when to be which.

Weak opponents hit your guard and are thrown off balance into defeat when it doesn’t move, just comes through into their chin.

Outstretched arms are also good for pulling an attacker into an attack, like cheung choi.

But, as the saying goes, never do the same thing twice…

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yum cha

out of curiousity do you prefer for the opponent to strike or do you like to be the attacker?

what would be your favourite entry technique or would you use one?

limb destruction is ykm basics in my sylibus taught from day one as a more yang aggressive techniques, moving on to yau soft techniques at a higher level, sticking and following is harder to achieve for a beginner i believe. whats your views on softness?

cya

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[system]

FT

Attack or Respond?

This is one of those fundamental questions. I feel stronger in responding to an attack than in attacking. I bridge/divert/slip their attack, take their space and continue. I like the way you call it “stick and slide in” I’ll steal that… It takes patience to wait for the attack, timing…and a bit of confidence.

I find the trick is to make the person attack in a particular or predictable way… Most players haven’t seen Pak Mei before, and don’t know what to expect. Its different sparring against a brother.

Yet, a counter-attack, an attack when the opponent pauses in his failed attack is comfortable too. I like to get a hold of a wrist or arm. I’m not big on chasing.

Softness:
I like the soft techniques. They really are the essence, aren’t they? I like the “sticky” techniques too… They work well together. Not really novice stuff though… If you don’t know Mam Fu, you won’t understand.

How about you out there, what do you use, what works for you?

Same question back at you FT!

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Yum Cha:

This is so important , to keep moving and leading the movements of your opponent. Up, down, forward, backward (but only slightly), alternating footwork… It keeps you moving and ready to react, it confuses the opponent, and is the initial phase of Domination where you lead the opponent to begin reacting to you, as opposed to you reacting to them…

EAZ
So, are you saying you keep your elbows bent at around 90 degrees? Do you keep the inner guard up near your face as well?

Are you fighting “headhunters” or “Stylists?” What is your favourite bridging technique? Soi Que?.

But, as the saying goes, never do the same thing twice…[/quote]

Concerning elbows: front guard is at height of chin, rear guard a little lower and closer to body, assuming at that moment that you are not 100% facing opponent. Once within range of any attack, respect golden rule of “V”, with shoulders forward, arm extended slightly past 90 degrees, elbow pointing towards your belly button.

I have found that the head is most exposed part of body and so yes I often keep second arm also at height of chin.

Silly question: headhunter = someone who aims for head?
Stylists: anyone who has form in their movement?

I do not know what Soi Que means, any possibility of translating?

As to whether to attack or defend: since the general golden rule is: one foot/fist follows another, I tend to be fairly static at first, moving just enough to be out of range of opponent arms, using bridge destruction technics (if I understand what this encompasses correctly) and then, “follow, meet, turn, angle, attack” and then keep attacking at close range.

A personal favorite, which, if someone is not trained for usually works very well and we train a lot with is using hte legs to attack legs: with tiger step, hit your tibia against oponenents, or step on his foot to immobilise him, or trap his foot with yours. Good traiing of this really unbalances opponenet because he will fear to approach you, and his legs become brittle.

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yum cha

in ykm as you have learnt the bak mei element of it, the formal centerline guard is very limited and can easily be cancelled!

training the internal or real ykm is loose and relaxed and is some what tricky always shape shifting leaving openenings then closing them off, sucking you in:) we are never still or grounded but have internal rocking from front to back never externally. what im talking about there is energy!!

personally im usually the offence as i dont believe in self defence, so im an offensive person hahahaha i like to control never defend bad mindset. soon as your close enough to be hit im into it!

in ykm we do alot of sensitivity work and sparring from bridging range, trying never to lose contact of the bridge whilst hitting the persons body. opening and closing the centerline using small and large circles then attacking with straight line and circular strikes.

as eaz mentioned we go hand for hand and leg for leg like a mirror image trying not to cross the body to strike the opponents body. this will only close your own centerline off and your finished if the other person quickly mor kuils!

leg kicks, sweeps, trips, traps, grinds, pinning techniques are all done with the legs whilst the hands are at play.

does this help you at all!?

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[system]

En garde

My favorites en garde stances would have to include three diferent ones. Two for sparring and fighting and the third for fighting alone.

1- On a cat stance, with shoulders facing the opponent, weight is about 90% on the rear leg. Leading arm is bent 135 degrees on the elbow and leading hand is open facing slightly upwhard. The other hand protects the midsection by facing down and almost connecting to the leading arm’s elbow. movement is accomplished by adducting the rear leg to the leading leg.

2- In a stance we call Chi Chen Ma, legs are about shoulder wide, and leading leg is about two steps forward from the back foot. Weight is distributed 50% on each leg, and knees adduct by sinking in. Shoulders are square with the opponent, and hands ar in the same position as above.

3- Just a natural stance, with feet about shoulder width and hands resting on the side of the body. This stance in a real fight situation does not give away one’s knowledege of martial arts which can be used against you in a court of law in case you do some real serious damage.

As far as attacking first, I prefer not to do that for personal reasons. I try to avoid conflict and not start it… especially after I have had extensive martial atrs training and could possibly harm someone. True enough control comes with time but often times our opponent’s lack of skill is what causes injury and not excessive use of force. If I do not attack first it cannot be used against me in a court of law. In tournment and sparring i prefer to be attacked because I can use pak mei’s ability to enter the enemy’s gate, open it and score a hit.

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li long

hi,

when i say i attack i dont mean i just go out and beat the sh!t out of people for no reason! lol see for me to just go off, that means my life and my love ones are in danger if i am threatened. you step to me, im in before you know it, you wont have time to set up a stance!

ive done door work and security for around 10 years and i kinda know about the law when it comes to hurting people! i worked in pyshc wards and hospitals where needles, axes,broken bottles, screw drivers, aids, hep c patients have attacked me.

ive been to court around 5 times and as long as you used enough power as possible to stop the attacker thats what the judge wants to hear. see the way i am i dont go looking for fights so if it comes to me i use as much force as necessary to control the situation. now if that hurts someone really bad then thats too bad! you dont know what these people have hidden on them and again what their intentions are?

you must put yourself in the mindset being the cause of the effect not the effect that was caused!!

put yourself in def con 1 hahahaha! hmmm

later

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[system]

Solid!

Now it’s getting interesting!

An interesting side line of this thread is that it really gives a look into the personality of each of us and our training and our school.

EAZ
yes, a “headhunter” is generally a kick-boxer or boxer who basically reckons to win the fight with some messy kicking and a heavy head shot. By “stylist” I mean a trained fighter that fights ‘in style.’ Perhaps a training brother, or someone from another style who uses more than the standared 4 karate kicks and boxing punches. Mui Thai and karate would be half-half, if you were fighting a well trained and disciplined opponent.

Soi Que is the ‘bridging’ attack where the back arm strikes forward with some waist and arm rotation, rotating through with the back of the fist leading, the forearm striking, elbow down. with chum ging

I used the same stance for a long time EAZ, elbows in, the V description is quite good. I evolved it into the more extended version, for precicely the reason you mentioned, the head is exposed, and a seasoned boxer brought this to my attention. Ouch. By extending the arms a bit more I was able to make him take 2 moves to reach me, which proved more beneficial for me. Still keeping the elbows pointed at the navel as much as possible though… Granted, against an opponent that attacks the whole body, bringing the arms in allows the elbows to protect the body more…

I’ve been trodding on and trapping the opponent’s foot since my Tae Kwon Do days as a teenager. My brothers consider it one of my signature moves. Like I said, I hate chasing. Excellent ring craft from my point of view. Stand on the foot and kick the same leg if you want to see someone suffer.

Tiger Stepping? Is that the move where you put your foot behind the opponents and Bik Bo shin to shin to collaps the knee? Rather dangerous for play, but a great move. Or is it something else? You’re a sneaky bastard, aren’t you

“One foot/fist follows another” Both you and FT like this concept, I’m not sure it talks to me, could you elaborate?

FT: Somehow the fact you like to attack doesn’t suprise me

Did we ever spar back in the old days, when Sam was training in Randy’s kwoon? I have a memory, but I’m not sure this old brain is accurate… it was when you were still a novice…

I’m not sure I understand your comments on not crossing the centre to avoid vulnerability. How does that apply to the soi que, larm dah technique?

With your Akido background, does that help your grappling and leg work at all? Any little tricks?

The sensitivity training seems interesting, thats the Wing Chun kinda thing, eh?

Li Long:
Now that’s interesting, cat stance work. The hand component sounds a lot like the one I use (no 2) I think it’s called something like Fau Sau or somesuch… Open hand/claw/tiger with second hand at elbow in fist, open, whatever… Elbows in as much as possible?

Cat stance allows for that little front kick to check/groin strike. Hmmmmm… Food for thought… Do you kick much, or use it to get the extra half step into the opponent? I like the idea of getting that extra half step. I’ve been training a half step back, full step forward technique as part of my ‘surprise’ routine and it sounds like that might be useful. I worry a bit about the stability though…getting bowled down or swept…? Any problem?

Your ‘natural’ stance and your legal observations are well put and important considerations, I concur wholeheartedly.

We do combination starting with hands at the sides, well out of range. I watched a white crane guy terrorise several tournament opponents with exactly the same stance, out of range, and then cleaning them up when they came after him.

+++++ To broaden the thread a bit:

Hips facing the opponent, shoulders squared, or side on? Or a bit of both? I find side-on can be limiting and opens you to takedowns…

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yum cha

we can go really in depth here but i wont i may email you later…?

ask your sifu about the 3 body shapes and this will help you understand how to fight and counter punching!!

here they are

sarm ying

1. yurn = circle
2. bin = oval
3. bok = thin/flat

know these you know the enemies moves!

like i said i can talk all day on this but maybe in person.

hap ki do has helped me find the kum la and shau chao techniques in ykm but i dont add any hap ki do in ykm.

yes you came up and showed a bak mei stance low and hands out palms facing outwards. you said attack and i got a finger lock on you!

but we never sparred as in gloves. i sparred sam, all sam’s guys i came from a kickboxing back ground so ring fighting and tourneys wasnt a problem. i was in another association fighting kung fu kickboxing rules with chuk fay of double dragon when si hing adrian was fighting in sifus tourneys. i was 16 years old, then! i turned 32 on friday damn man im catching you. hahahah

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[system]

i forgot

answer to your soy kuil question!

never cross your centerline with your rear hand inside your opponents centerline. They will close you off on the 1st beat, and you wont regain it if they then can control. 1st rule taught in ykm!! lead hand yes because waist isnt locked and a retreat or advance is quick like in ying jow lin kuil.

a quick answer to head hunters or kick boxers!

not all kickboxers are like this, there are lots of good kickboxers that are technicians and understand fighting theories and principles. dont under estimate thai or kickboxing because ive seen them easily beat kung fu guys that have 30 forms and years of experience. if they can play in the ring they can easily be as good on the street.

see basics are the key to any art, kickboxing has basic techniques but effect if you have timing distance and fighting knowledge.

our chi sau isnt like wingchun chi sau.

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[system]

FT

Happy birthday! Here’s cheers old man! Not quite caught up with me yet…

Sorry, hapkido, not akido. I knew that…oops!

Finger lock? Gee, funny that, I seem to have a totally different memory trace… Was that a Hapkido or Akido finger lock -snicker-

We only sparred with gloves on, so perhaps your memory is as bad as mine. We fought full contact in those days. I used to fight all the juniors to give them some controlled experience. Not really full-on. I admit I do have a little trouble remembering you as a young lad though. It was 12 years ago. Lots of young lads back then…I remember you more later, when Sam had his own Kwoon.

You make a good point about Kickboxers. Dangerous as hell. Boxers too. I didn’t mean Head-hunter as a term of dismissal, just a profile. Quite often their hands are the stronger component of their fighting ability and their kicks are just distractions, set-ups for the head shot. A few good techniques, well practiced and ring craft and you’re dangerous, no debate.

I consider Ali one of the finest martial arts masters ever to live. His footwork has lots of interesting lessons…

3 body shapes, thats a new one for me…perhpas more? I really should see you work out these days. How’s the foot? Email me.

Thanks for the clarification about the crossing centre line. You read my mind concerning ying jow lin kuil.

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yum cha

i joined sifu when i was 16 in 1986 he closed down in 87 if i recall. i went to the park mostly but not all the time as i was still competing in kickboxing and kung fu tourneys. i saw a flyer at zoe’s martial arts supplies of sam’s and said great ykm is reopening so i went and studied at sam’s whilst learning under sifu at the park.

so you probably saw me as sam’s student more likely!

we never touched gloves with you, maybe you did with sam’s students but you never did with me!

hehehehe the finger lock i remember well as i remember you and your bro used to come up to randy’s school and he used to do the 2nd kwan dao form. i was only on sup jee or ying ching at that time.

my foot is still sore, but slowly getting there.

ali was a legend and not man fighters like him till this day.

3 shapes will open so many doors to your forms and fighting techniques. maybe you will understand why that kempo guy sometimes gets you once you know these shapes and how the cancel each other?!

good luck and let me know when you get the answer and we will cross refrence it?

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[system]

FT

Sifu is in China for 6 weeks. Family emergency.

I’ll probably forget by the time he gets back…

[system]

ok

write it down or ask one off his chinese students?

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[system]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Yum Cha:

Soi Que is the ‘bridging’ attack where the back arm strikes forward with some waist and arm rotation, rotating through with the back of the fist leading, the forearm striking, elbow down. with chum ging

Tiger Stepping? Is that the move where you put your foot behind the opponents and Bik Bo shin to shin to collaps the knee? Rather dangerous for play, but a great move. Or is it something else? You’re a sneaky bastard, aren’t you

“One foot/fist follows another” Both you and FT like this concept, I’m not sure it talks to me, could you elaborate?

Li Long:
Now that’s interesting, cat stance work. The hand component sounds a lot like the one I use (no 2) I think it’s called something like Fau Sau or somesuch… Open hand/claw/tiger with second hand at elbow in fist, open, whatever… Elbows in as much as possible?

. I’ve been training a half step back, full step forward technique as part of my ‘surprise’ routine and it sounds like that might be useful. I worry a bit about the stability though…getting bowled down or swept…? Any problem?

_+++++ To broaden the thread a bit: _

Hips facing the opponent, shoulders squared, or side on? Or a bit of both? I find side-on can be limiting and opens you to takedowns…[/quote]

Thank you for Soi Que definition, it is clear now.

“Tiger stepping”
Tiger Step: (forward) front leg moves ahead, back leg follows immediately) (but I also like to do the move you describe of going around shin and tripping his leg)
Leopard Step: weight alternates from one leg to the other, stepping forward is most basic Leopard step; stepping sideways with one leg and then forward into other is more leopardish
Dragon Step: shuffle forward: back foot advances first then front foot advances
Snake step: circular or legs crossing
crane 90 degrees step, goal is to change angle against opponent 90 degrees. Can be simmple pivot or larger movement.
(this is example of how 5 animals is used in our Pei Mei system )

One foot/fist follows other = one attack is always followed by another. It is pointless to attack only once. Only a succession of attacks can overwhelm. This is common to most schools. and generation of Pei Mei brutal strengh comes out here.

Cat Stance: I would be afraid of taking this stance against any agressive person. It seems to me you are ill prepared to attack and not really ready to react to opponent rush to destroy you. The cat stance for me is an intermediary stance you may find yourself in momentarily during combat, but not one I would use before bridge in any case.

Half step back full step forward:
I also love to do this, especially against a non determined opponent (who only makes one attack and does not follow up immediately). You impose the bridge on him.

It reminds me of the Pei Mei adage “follow, meet, turn, angle attack”

Side vs front facing: a 3/4 facing initially is common, but once bridge esablished then there is full frontal attack.

I must say my only fighting experience is with Pei Mei and Wing Chun students; no real combat experience (I don’t count pushing and shoving etc)

[system]

stepping

why and when would you do a full step, anyone care to answer this SIMPLE question?

never heard of leopard step! tiger step, 8 step cicada, shrimp step, single leg ride the dragon, but not leopard.

jik bo, bik bo, fu bo, bat bo, ma bo etc never pow bo!?

does anyone use pressure points on the legs whist attacking? if so what points do you use?

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