we only have three stances,yui ma,ma pu and ban pu.
i to never heard of pow bo[leopard stance]
we learn that the tiger is offensive[not attack]the dragon weaves in and out[not like a snake]cut aross the centre line disabling both arms…but these are only principals and have to be aplied to all three of the above,most importantly its of the hips or the yui that frees us and roots us so we know when to feel to take flight?this where the contradiction of all our stances are i believe[but don’t be mis-lead it is no way a conclusion]
f.t to yummy the 3 body shapes?would this be the panther,tiger,dragon shape and to whom it may concern?if so what have you learned? 
smarter than the average gwai-low just joking 
5 animals
The 5 animal system is prevalent in all vietnamese Southern Kung Fu buddhist systems. It is linked to 5 elements and is used as a coherent theory to explain:
- foot movements
-types of kicks - types of punches
- principle of combat (transforming nature of 5 elements applied to combat situation, continuous force, and hence to “5 elements form” as advanced form. End Goal: spontaneous transformation between elements, not learnt reactions, no routines)
Condensed example:
Example: Dragon = pushing, pulling, seizing; Big Yang; this is why the 9 step push form is called 9 step push of Dragon. There are 4 other forms in Vietnam which condense eachother form; Tiger coming out of forest of…Tiger, etc…
On top of this first level of theoretical system, common to many styles, each style emphesises its own points, in the case of Pei Mei, Tiger and Leopard.
I have not come across this system of understanding outside of Vietnam. Although some schools do teach 5 animals principle. However the general theory of 5 animals as described in 2 previous posts above is more general and more abstract, while also taught in Vietnam, is more abstract.
This cuts to the core of differences between Chinese martial arts in Vietnam and those in CHina: WIng Chun, Praying Mantis, Hung Gar, Crane, all have 5 animals in theory in Vietnam, at least some schools do(ANd even then many vietnamese schools still do not have 5 animals).
This is my “bread and butter”, the foundation off learning on which is built all bridging, movement fighting techniques…
Once again I hasten to add that there is a general corpus shared between stules and then it is specialised in each style.
I understand that this si foreign to many Pei Mei practicioners elsewhere but, without passing any judgement one way or another, it may be of interest.
I cannot go too far in detail however as I am pretty much forbbiden to.
EAZ
stances and movement
Thanks EAZ,
Your “leopard step” is what we call toi ma bik bo. You can retreat, or, step back then recoil forward. Part of the pattern Ying Jau Lin Que. The rest of your stance descriptions are all familiar to me, interesting the names your style places on them.
We look at it slightly differently though, with the basic stance(s), Ma Bu, Bing Ma Bu, and the transitions. Snake, Cat, bik bo, toi ma bik bo, “going” ma bo, the pivots and rotations, etc are all moving or transitions. I’m prarticularly interested in stances at the moment, as the thread suggests.
But, I like the wisdom of the animals…more language to pry out of Sifu…<grin>
Thanks for clarifying one foot/fist follows other, not the language I use, but the concept is fundamental. I didn’t think mirroring was a practical concept.
Your commentary on the 5 animals/elements is interesting. But don’t be concerned, its only words, unless you have the solid fundamentals to understand the wisdom and execute the principles.
We share some common ground here, but I learn it physically, not verbally, as part of “interactive” training, if you understand what I mean. The patterns teachs you “lessons”, and they can be extracted into a group of flexible combinations or techniques, distilled if you will into “keys.” But likewise, I’m restricted from going into more detail…
Welcome back Sui Fuw, your contributions are always appreciated, if a bit cryptic. Do you have a favourite starting stance, a square off technique? An engagement technique?
Kull,
Can’t we tease you out?
sui fuw
i new you would pop up sooner or later
5 animals with foot work, well i am very interested in hearing these answers.
3 body shapes i dont think are related to animalsl, i could be wrong.
we have tiger back, monkey chest, dragon waist, horse legs, leopard head etc
we have lung yuil fu bo= move like a dragon step like a tiger.
yum cha why are you restricted to talk on stances, we are giving you good info? want things you must give things! 
no secrets here :rolleyes:
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yummy i don’t have a favorite,be as natural as can be,i suppose?can’t agree with u more on the 5 animals.more is not better for instance why not go to bodidharma’s 12 animals?we all come from neutral and often asked if we can feel the floor?[a question that can’t be answered of course]
yummy,1 question.do you believe in “san da”?i’ve already asked f.t
f.t good to see you again 3 body shapes?i was refering to each peron who practises pak-mei are framed differently eg a person that was square or round shaped would automaticly adoped a tiger charecteristic,oval a panther or leopared and slim,thin,tall elegance of a dragon.
i would say you be a tiger?yummy a dragon?given the pictures on your websites.
you would come full on,cause not many people can take your force?yummy would wait and take a side door as he said…so on and so forth[to read a person before the cross hands?]
so do you guys get the picture?thats what i thought you meant on three body shapes,i was wrong though
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fiercest tiger:
we have tiger back, monkey chest, dragon waist, horse legs, leopard head etc
we have lung yuil fu bo= move like a dragon step like a tiger.
[/quote]
We have this as well.
Yum Cha: You say “we have common ground here”: does that mean that this 5 animal theory as I described is similar in your system?
In any case I also learn like you that:
- you must tease techniques out of forms
- 5 animals/elements = mental construct therefore not reality as it is (but very useful “koan”)
Also agree on sequence of leopard step back, then rapid tiger step forward, from form, is good example of application.
I would also add, going momentarilly off post, that 5 elements theory is taught along with Eastern medecine, Yi King, etc, so all flows together fairly seemlessly.
sui fuw
you are mostly right on the 3 shapes, good description on the animals too, never looked at it like that!
i use all 3 shapes when fighting, because i never favour one stance 
later 
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wow,i was coming to that,so you know to fit the circle?your teacher must find you kinda special to show you this,or did you come to that yourself?nice-one gwai-low not many of you understand you know?
i definatly want to cross hands with you now!!! to see how good i am?
don’t wait you may become grey in the process
cant go grey
bold remember!
i have white eyebrows…
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i thought you grew it back?
San Da
Sui Fuw - This is hard for me. Language is not how I learn things. I hear you guys put language to concepts, and I say, oh, that must be this or that concept, and it’s interesting, but I don’t learn that way.
What does San Da mean in English? Perhaps I can work better from there.
EAZ,
I re-read your post about Leopard step, and it really isn’t toi ma bik bo, but it is close, perhaps in principle if not in actual execution. A “going back” bik bo sometimes contains a bit of a pivot to get a different angle.
We don’t talk about 5 animals, but we talk about several different “natures” of attack, or personalities if you prefer. Its a show and emulate thing, without the language, I interpret the best I can. Perhaps they are “animals” perhaps not. The ‘combinations’ are flexible, but within a confined philosophy. We do have a 5 animals pattern, Ng Ying, which is closely held.
I am comparing notes with a friend that was taught the 5 Elements theory and seeing how they compare. Fuzzy ground.
Sui Fuw
Tall and slim <grin>. Are you looking at the half-bald, bearded guy?? A bit taller than FT, perhaps a bit slimmer, but not much… Much stronger though, and more hansome…
Perhaps this 3 forms/shapes concept is the reason that Sifu teaches different guys different fighting techniques and different training exercises. He stops us from sharing certain techniques by saying “not for him, for you.” Part of it is fundamental skill and ability too, and the strength of your foundations. But part is definately physical shape.
FT - I’m hurt. I share and contribute a lot, more than I should perhps, but my honour and respect of my Sifu is important to me. He has asked for so little, yet given me so much. I’ve got responsibilities.
As you know, some of the YKM guys have made mistakes in the past that have cost them the respect of their family, I don’t want to suffer the same fate in my school. Gwai Lo have a double burden to bear.
BTW, I saw a YKM novice down at Bondi this morning with his girlfriend.
alright i give up
i wont ask anything from you, sorry to hurt your feeling!
one day i may show you my other 5 animal form to yours. your friend is ykm i suppose, 5 animal?
i have learnt 2 completely different versions, my sifu’s and guangzhou’s version. i believe asings is very close to ykm’s may have a few extra or less moves? :rolleyes: i know it starts the same etc!!
anyone i know down at bondi?
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yummy,
" Perhaps this 3 forms/shapes concept is the reason that Sifu teaches different guys different fighting techniques and different training exercises. He stops us from sharing certain techniques by saying “not for him, for you.” Part of it is fundamental skill and ability too, and the strength of your foundations. But part is definately physical shape"
have you ever heard you si-fu say “each technique has a form,each form has no technique”?
in our village there were 4 pak-mei men who learn the same technique.but they all looked and feel different to each other[the technique also],later that decade 4 pai’s of pak-mei were formed.but they weren’t split still the same pai.
my question is, why?what does your insperation tell you?
[This message was edited by sui-fuw on 11-28-01 at 07:47 AM.]
yum cha-
tease me out?.. what do u mean?
sui fuw nice post i must say!
yum cha,
i dont understand what you mean, your sifu would teach you this but not that? for you or not for you this is the question are you talking about how your day sut was altered because your a gwalo or the moves on the ground are to difficult for some people!
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