Hey everyone. I’ve been viewing this forum for quite some time and finally decided to sign up and start posting. Anyway, here’s my question. Please respond and give me your opinion on this.
Not disrespecting Man Kwong Fong in any way, but his Sub Jee form makes no use whatsoever of the phoenix-eye fist, plus it is slightly different than the version I learned. Do any of you know why this is, and if it is perhaps a truer version of Sub Jee? He was the last and youngest deciple of CLC, is this just a later version that CLC taught without the phoenix-eye fist used? Anyway, give me your insights and any students of Man Kwong Fong i’d really like to hear from you.
By the way, I know all the controversy regarding the different branches of Pak Mei and variations. This is just something I was wondering if someone who knows can expound upon. Let’s get a Good thread going here.
Maybe he doesn’t believe in teaching the pheonix eye fist at such an early stage to inexperienced students. It is quite dangerous.I use the pheonix eye fist alot even in sparring and my sifu tells me not to when we spar due to it being dangerous.
Maybe he added his own flavour to the form to suit his abilities. It has been known for many teachers to do that. Sort of putting their own signature on it. Not that their is anything wrong in that, but some teachers sometimesmight add a few things.
Our Sup Jee form is a little different to Pak Mei Sup Jee. I have practiced the Pak Mei Sup Jee and our YKM form is similar yet has some different moves. Like i said different teachers adding their own flavour to it. 
lung…
See, that is my guess as well. However, I had someone very highly skilled in Pak Mei tell me that the phoenix-eye fist is mainly used by the younger generation practitioners and that alot of the older Pak Mei guys do not use it, instead they use a regular closed fist. He said that alot of them felt it was more stable and consider the phoenix-eye fist more of a younger man’s technique. I’m not saying I agree with this, so let’s not get a flame going, but it is food for thought.
You’ll also notice that there are branches of CLC Pak Mei that emphasize the use of a type of Ba Gwa blocking method and these practitioners don’t seem to use much of the pheonix-eye in their method either.
Anyway, thanks for the reply. Lets keep it comin!
Maybe the older generation want to play dumb(no offence) or just not teach the real use of the pheonix fist. Maybe they cannot hold the pheonix eye fist correctly anymore or maybe they didn’t learn it properly(no offence to anyone, just a guess)
See we also don’t punch with the palm of the fist facing downwards, we punch at an angle with the elbow facing the floor and arm bent.
My Sifu doesn’t hold back on teaching us anything. He doesn’t believe in that.
We have a form called Say Mun Baqua (8 directional fist).
Food for thought.
hi 9 step
i have the video you are talking about.
the bak mei trademark is phoenix eye fist. what i have been told is that dragon style never used phoenix eye - the new generation do. there are times in bak mei forms when regular fists are used - depends on angle, direction & intention of the punch.
i was taught to use the regular fist when i learnt the basics, and was shown the phoenix eye fist only when i reached intermediate levels. the reason for this - if you cant yet punch properly with a regular fist, then you would definately damage yourself doing the phoenix eye. the hand is conditioned and trained as a regular fist first. in the past, phoenix eye fist was only taught to those that were trusted.
ill write more later - im going to see crouching tiger hidden dragon. nice thread - welcome aboard.
peace
Fiercest Tiger
Thanks for the post. What is your opinion of the form as presented by Man Kwong Fong? It differs quite a bit from the version i learned, however I cannot say I dislike it. It is rather interesting to me to think that perhaps what I was told about the older generation versus the younger generation might be true. Anyway, let me know what you think. Hopefully we can get a good, overall discussion thread of Pak Mei going here.
sup jee kuen
you probably know that sup jee is sometimes called sui sup jee, dai sup jee is also called sek see.
maybe that is the form you are learning? can you descibe a little to me so i can get a better picture. if its almost the same as man kwong fongs sup jee with a few small differences, it doesnt really matter which one is right & which ones wrong. they are probably both a little different from the ones taught to them. lots of different things can “change” a form; body shape, flexibility, disability, & understanding (& more). if the form is completely different to the forms you have, then it is worth learning.
man kwong fongs sup jee is good, it is very similar to sek see. overall it is an excellent basic form which has good fighting applications.
incidentally, we (ykm) have a form that is called sup jee kuen… it is quite different to the bak mei (clc) version.
peace
Interesting…
The Sub Jee as I know it differs only slightly from the version taught by Man Kwong Fong. The main difference is of course that the version I practice contains the phoenix-eye fists as well there is the typical 1-legged 3-hop retreat (dragon influence?) following a low side kick as well power is issued a little differently (more abrupt in it’s expression).
Man Kwong Fong’s expression of power is more fluid and has a tensile like quality to it where as the version I have is more like a series of small bursts being released. I am sure however that much of this probably has to do with the fact that his power is more refined and has little to do with the actual form itself.
His chi-kung was interesting albeit a little ambiguous. This may however have been intentional on his part.
Some very interesting stuff here.
Sub Jee is not originally Pak Mei. It is from the Li Ga system. That could be the reason you dont see the phoenix eye fist
Olaf
I’m aware that Sub Jee is not an “original” Pak Mei set; I’m also aware that from my understanding anyway that it originally comes from Lee Gar. However, as practiced in Pak Mei it usually contains the signature phoenix-eye fist as it was reworked by CLC to conform to the Pak Mei principles. Since MKF (getting tired of writing his name out…lol) is a Pak Mei Sifu who trained personally under Master CLC I was curious as to why his Pak Mei Sub Jee Kuen did not apparently make use of the phoenix-eye fist. See I was even considering the possibility that perhaps the version MKF offers is intentionally closer to the original Lee Gar version of Sub Jee. Who knows..lol.
Anyway, thanks for the input. Let’s keep this post a-rollin.
NineStep
Pak Mei kung-Fu
Sorry, my mistake. Our version of Sup Jee is called Sek See in YKM. In the Pak Mei version that i learnt it was also called Sek See. Fiercest tiger is correct in the different names.
In YKM we have a form called Sup Jee yet it is completely different to Sek See/Sup Jee(9 setps version).
Oh yeah, the PM version of Sek See i know doesn’t have the 1 legged 3-hop, we have bend the knee then jump back into a crouch, get up (left)low side kick followed by a right jump front kick.
[This message was edited by lungyuil on 02-03-01 at 01:56 PM.]
lung yuil your confused
lung yuil- bak mei has sup jee and sek see too! but they are very similar to each other.
our sup see is different, our sek see is the old version large cross set(dai sup jee) old name and sek see is the new name. MKF version has ying jee bok lerng( sp) bird sits on perch technique. ours dont, we have more hand work AND lots on TTFC.
the vietnamese version sek see is again different, it makes use of 8 direction. MKF demo is does look a little tense, i think its the stomping ging he is doing during the movements, making himself ground and more explosive. he definately has power.
nine step- it doesnt matter if the phoenix eye is in it or not. maybe he doesnt want to show the phoenix eye on video. 
peace
Fiercest Tiger
I agree that it matters little, just a curiosity. In fact i’m rather intrigued by the concept of using a regular fist as opposed to the phoenix-eye exclusively.
It is just this type of research and discussion as well as hard work and practice that help to uncover the truths often thought long lost or hidden deep within the system.
Thanks for the reply.
NineStep
Pak Mei Kung-Fu
ninestep
who is your sifu and where do you live?
what level/form have you attained?
depends on where your hitting on your opponent when using the phoenix eye, regular fist will still do damage if you have ging! palms and finger strikes are big too, in bak mei.
try emailing him, he may give you a answer on that question.
peace
Well…
I live in the U.S. and have been studying, researching and practicing Pak Mei for around 9 yrs now. My personal training program consists of the following:
Gic Bo (straight steps)
Sub Jee (cross pattern)
Gau Bo Taew (9 step push)
Wu Dip Do (butterfly knives)
I believe in keeping it simple and follow the less-is-more/quality over quantity approach. I currently train a small group of students who compete full-contact in muay thai style fights and they are all doing very well.
I have already emailed MKF but have yet to hear back from him concerning this. Hopefully I will get a reply soon.
Speaking of finger strikes, were you aware that Gic Bo is often also titled Gic Bo Biu Jee Kuen? I found this most interesting and would like to get your take on it as well. Finger strikes indeed!
Anyway I hope that helps. This has been really interesting. Maybe we can hear from mantis108 on this.
NineStep
Pak Mei Kung-Fu
jik bo kuen!
chung bo kuen, jik bo, ly jik bo, jik bo buil jee kuen. all same form different variations. depending on the emphasis of TTFC, or buil jee choom choy, or stance work.
this is a little couplet for jik bo-
“try hard and persistently on the straight step punch; the method of inspiration and expiration, risr and fall of movements, all lie in it”
definatly quality is better than quantity, who was your sifu? havent learnt the double tonfa yet? 
peace
Thanks for the couplet
Very interesting. “all lie in it”. Everything can be traced back to the gic bo.
My teacher was a man named Michael Newman. He was killed a few years ago and since then I have been studying and researching pak mei kung-fu on my own. He taught me pak mei and wu style tai chi chuan that he learned while working as a cook in Kansas City, Mo. Apparently the owners of the restaurant brought this guy over from hong kong who spoke almost no english and he wasn’t here exactly legally. According to Michael everyone that worked in the kitchen called this guy “ugly knuckles” due to his enlarged and heavily calloused knuckles. Michael studied pak mei and wu style from him until he got booted back to hong kong for being here illegally. go figure.
no I haven’t had the opportunity to learn the double tonfa set. Isn’t that set originally from Lee family as well? I could be wrong about this. Sounds like a very interesting set though.
Funny thing is I’ve been told that my wu dip do is almost identical to the dragon style wu dip do. Wouldn’t surprise me as that’s probably where it originated from.
NineStep
Pak Mei Kung-Fu
About Jik Bo…
Hi NineStep,
First of a warm welcome. Thank you also for the invite to the Pak Mei forum. It is wonderful to see more practitioner making use of the internet. We can all meet and benefit from each other.
Regarding your curriculum:
Gic Bo (straight steps)
Sub Jee (cross pattern)
Gau Bo Taew (9 step push)
Wu Dip Do (butterfly knives)
I must applaud you for keeping it simple. Quality, IMHO, is more important than quantity. Personally, I am not a form collector neither. I’d like to comment on your curriculum first and then on the Gic Bo if you don’t mind.
The 3 forms, in my mind, pretty much cover all the bases. From this choice, I would surmise that your orientation is street fright readiness. More walk less talk. Good choice on the weapon as well. That conforms to the hand forms or shall I say extending the hands? By using such a curriculum, it would produce a proficient fighter in a relatively short time frame within 3 years may be less. Good to see that.
Jik Bo (hope this won’t turn into another controvesy), as far as my research goes it might not be a Bak Mei orginal. It might have been based on a form or a system called Sarm Bo Tyui, which was Hoi Fung Si’s specialty (I have no written prove of this though). Lung Ying’s version of Sarm Bo Tyui is the Sup Luk Dong (16 moves). In Lung Ying’s Meng Fu Til Cheung, there is a section very similar to Jik Bo except it’s right leg forward. It is believed that Meng Fu Tuil Cheung was a adoptation of Sarm Bo Tyui as well. The Bil Jee Yat Tsui is unmistakenly present in these forms. Tun To Fao Chum is there, and the Pheonix eye is used as well (not for novice though).
Mantis108
P.S.
My Curriculum:
Jik Bo (Straight steps)
Dan Ging (Single Power)
Meng Fu Chut Lum (fierce Tiger leaves the woods) not good at this one yet
Fu Mei Kwan (Tiger Tail staff)
Would add the bench later.
Contraria Sunt Complementa
Good to hear from you Mantis108
Glad you joined in the disscussion here. Interesting observation on the gic bo; it wouldn’t surprise me if you were correct on that.
Thank you for the kind words regarding my curriculum. I can see that you hold the same idea of quality over quantity. I had recently read of some old Hsing-I guys who would learn and focus on just one of the 5 fists as opposed to learning all 5 or even the animal forms. Supposedly the ones who chose to take this route of simplicity had attained a reputation as some of the fiercest fighters. Just food for thought.
Fierce Tiger Comes Out From Forest (Fierce Tiger Leaves the Woods) is a nice form. Some rather sophisticated techniques that still yet hold practical combat value. Kudos.
again thanks for the kind words and hopefully we can continue a good discussion here. Glad you joined in.
NineStep
Pak Mei Kung-Fu
You guy’s are right. There seems to be a tendency to base someones quality on the number of forms he/she knows and not the quality of the performance.
It also takes a good sifu/seniors to prove the added value of practising the same form over and over and making small ajustments/improvements.
Hmm thinking back about my gau bo tauw when I had just learned it amuses me now.