ok, this question goes mainly to those of you who have trained / are still training both styles:
what are the differences between pak mei and wing chun? I’ve never seen pak mei in action, actually the only things I know about it are that
a) its creator was sent to exile by the shaolin monks for killing a few of his shaolin brothers with stlye.
b) that my sijo, wong shun leung, won all of his (> 60) “street” fights but one, which was against a pak mei fighter (the fight ended in a draw).
since both styles a southern, are there similar techniques? is pak mei an infighting system like wing chun?
There are many differances,one of the most notable is power generation,I went from Bai Mei to Wingstun and had to re-think my body into the WT way of doing things(Not saying that WT is better!).If you are a WT/WC man then I’ll assume that you generate power through proper footwork combined,foward motion,thrusting(in WT we lock out the arms on exention,which is not bad because its very hard to catch our arms),also we extend at every joint starting at the shoulder.Yip Man said that each joint adds to the power,like a snake that strikes is just a bunch of linked joints,a chain reaction takes place.Ok,now Bai Mei takes that idea and applies the whole body(not saying Bai Mei is better!)Bai Mei tourques,floats,sinks,swallows,spits ect.Also Bai Mai uses a type of "Tan Sao"and “Bil Jee” as expressed in the “Jek Bo” form.Also Bai Mei has its own “Bong Sao” which is used in a differant way than WT/WC oh don’t want to leave out Vingtsun.So I would say from studying both and far from being an expert in either, power generation is the big differance,alot of concepts are the same.Don’t let anyone fool ya WT/WC has Fa-jing,most just don’t show ya until years of study,Bai Mai emphasizes this from the beginning,hope I have been a little bit of help,there is much more but my wife just got home and I have too go,lol
FT,I wanted to get it right before my reply,I just watched Kwong Man Fong’s tape and realized that the set they call “Sub Jee Kuen” is the set we call “flower”,he(and his about to have a heart attack student) has left many things out,why I don’t know,perhaps not to give this knowledge away to the public,these are some I noticed missing.
Double Eagle Claw
Double Tiger Claw
Bong Sao-followed by a heavy open back hand
Not trying to down his student,he just left out more than his sifu and sacrficed speed for focus,or perhaps he was told to be misleading,I’ll make sure I get you a tape of the “Sub Jee” I learned,we once put on a demo,there were Japanese TV crews there,Dr.Wong did “Flower” and mixed it all up into something that it was not.
When I asked him,hmmm, Dr.Wong,that kind off looked flower,but you added and took away alot.
His reply was,“I didn’t want the Japanese too see the real thing,my people suffered enough at their hands,my father was a General and fought against them”
Peace
hi,
my sifu was the australian traditionl chinese martial arts association president and founder, and the japan chinese kung fu association paid there respect at our kwoon, with some of the old master, from bak mei, chow gar, clf etc (they were my sifu’s friends). the japanese brought gifts and demoed for him, i was sitting beside him and he turned his back to them and gave all there gifts away to other people (i got a hand-painted samurai silk picture) it was strange, but i kind of understand what he was going through. he was in the war and some of his students and friends were killed, he just didnt like the japanese there in his school. i had never seen my sifu act like that before, he had a pretty scary look in his eyes.
fiercest tiger: are you talking about wong shun leung or leung sheung?
Leung Sheung: Yip Man’s first pupil in hongkong, and the first one that opened his own school. WT’s leung ting first trained under him before he learned from yip man for a little less than a year.
Wong Shun Leung: the king of beimo (challenge fight I think), who was bruce lee’s teacher and mentor.
what kind of video was it? “the science of infighting”? in that case, it was wong shun leung.
Most Bak Mei stories are BS and started out of spite/jealousy/ShawBrosStudios…
They are both south hand but BM is another animal and, without using too may superlatives, way beyond the scope of WC… I found WC an apt stepping stone, but it just allowed me to see what I hadn’t previously understood and it was left behind with no remorse…
Now to get technical the bong sao in Bai Mai is in one of the external sets that we call “flower”,the one Kwong in his video calls “Sub jee kuen”(what does that mean in chinese kull?)He does not do the bong sao in his form as I was taught,the Bai Mei bong sao I learned was a mid to low from the side bong sao as opposed to the front on mid to high bong sao I learned in Wingtsun,that being said I find it interesting that Leung Sheung was a Bai Mei Sifu before his encounter with Yip Man,after that his student,his Wing Chun looks different from other Wing Chun,Leung Ting who was his student has definately had some kind of influnce from some other than Yip Man’s Wing Chun on him,its my theory(and it might sound crazy) that Bai Mei stayed with Leung Sheung even after he became Yip’s student,what do they say?,you can take the man away from the Bai Mei but you can’t take the Bai Mei away from the man.I’m sure Leung Sheung was shunned by the Bai Mei community because he switched but I think his Bai Mei influnced Leung Ting’s Wing Chun latter to be called Vingtsun then end up as Wingtsun,crazy theory? maybe so but I’m not the only one(the others are in hiding,lol).Bai Mei influnced my Wingtsun but alot of Bai Mei theorys “clicked” when I started studying Wingtsun,maybe it was because I’m older now,I like them both and think they go well together like a symphony,others can have only one without spitting out the other,I feel as both arts were my parents.I’m sure some might cry blaspheme! at my crazy rantings but I can see the connection even though they are both different.I just can’t wait for my back to heal up so I can start working out again and stop being the armchair MA I’ve become,again just my theory and a few others,no offense intended,I’ve already rattled a few BJJ guys but kissed and made up.
hmmm… in the “small cross” set from that stupid Green Dragon group in Ohio, they do one of those lower wing arm type moves. But this cr@p is not authentic Bak Mei by any stretch of the imagination…
Those fruit bats at the green dragon are light years from me.
Thanks FT for translating that for me because Sub jee is my BABY!!,it was taught to me as SHORT CROSS (sorry 4 da caps),but if there was any set I trained the hardest in, it was Short Cross,over and over again,fast,slow,jing,no jing,soft,hard,spitting,well you get the pic.I’m confused why Kwong would call “flower” sub jee???,I’m going to get to the bottom of this because I worked my arse off on this set and am damned proud of it!,well I once used to flow in it like the wind,now I’m getting old,lol
it is in the Bai Mei “flower set” not WT,I’ll get more info and get back with ya Kull , facing 45 deg.Double tiger calw(right high),left foot(rear)shifts to right(pivoting your facing to 90 deg.) bringing right arm into bong sao,left hand slaps right inside elbow in a sort of wu sao trap,wu sao turns to tiger claw clearing path for heavy open back hand,no way to confuse this with WT,practiced this set many times also
In his,he salutes,grabs,punches,steps foward with right foot and expands,then does a sort of rolling elbow.Now this rolling elbow is where my sub jee has its low bong sao,BUT,my sub jee is different in many ways before and after this happens,but he does do a soft/heavy backhand after his rolling elbow,but there are so many other things left out,is this the way he teaches his students?,like to hear from one of his students if this is just disinformation,mine is different,and this is not the “short cross set” I learned,his sub jee kind of looks like “Flower” set.
Good thing for slow motion on VCRs
he teaches sub jee as is on the video tape…then leaves it up to the student to mimick moves. it takes many years to learn from Kwong Sifu and his kwoon is family/club like. traditional. as time passes, techniques are shown with application, etc. its all in time with Kwong Sifu. as he says, many quit few stay.
We are students of Sifu Kwong Man Fong. Until now we have refrained from posting, since we believe everyone is entitled to their opinion. However, we believe a few of your comments are misguided; we are posting to voice our views on them.
Regarding your comments about the way sub jee was performed on our videotape:
Different instructors of the same style choose different aspects of the system to emphasize; our Sifu has chosen speed and power. This is given the fact that most combatants in a fight will be trying to move faster than their opponent, strike harder and avoid being hit.
As far as my classmate having a heart attack, it’s highly unlikely since one must be in suburb physical condition to move at that pace and intensity.
Regarding your comments about missing techniques in sub jee.
You seem to have a preconceived notion that movements were left out from our demonstration of sub jee. How do you know that movements weren’t added to your version of sub jee?
Variations in forms and techniques are common in different schools of the same style. Look at any master’s demo with different schools doing the same style. We have seen forms from students of Cheung Bing Lam, Chan Dor, and a few other schools, although the forms are approximately the same, there are some variations among the techniques.
When a classmate of yours came for a visit in the late ‘90’s, he performed nine-step push. It was different from the way we perform it, but this does in no way mean one is better than the other
We wish well in your training, and we look forward to further communication between our schools.
it was strange, but i kind of understand what he was going through. he was in the war and some of his students and friends were killed, he just didnt like the japanese there in his school. i had never seen my sifu act like that before, he had a pretty scary look in his eyes.