Gypsy, Wanderers, Beggers, Vagabond

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
1

Hi,

Just out of interest, I have been trying to find out a little about these styles, due to their connection to Bak Mei Pai.

In HB UN’s book, he mentions Cheung Lai Cheun learned the Cross Set (Kata), Sun, Moon, Monkey, Knife and other Sets from Sifu (Smallpox) Lam (12), a teacher of Gipsy Style.

The only other reference to this style, I found in a rare book called “Shaolin Tiger Boxing”, by Hui Yat Chiu (Yih Mei Book Co., 1982). In the introduction, they go into a fair bit of the history of this style, which is variously called Vagabond, Gypsy, Wanderers, or Beggers. The book also says this style includes within its curriculum; Shaolin Tiger Boxing (which looks purely Hung Gar to me), Luo Han Boxing (Arhats’ Boxing), Mo Tang Chiang, etc.

I also paged through Kungfu Wushu-Qigong’s Millennium Edition (January 2000), but could not find any references to it.

Would anyone know anything about this style, and it’s relation to Bak Mei? Would “Cross Set” be Sup Ji? What would “Sun, Moon, and Monkey” be (Monkey = groundfighting set?) - or were they incorporated?

For that matter, does anyone know anything about Lee Gar either? Was it predominantly the weapon forms from Lee Gar that were incorporated? HB Un mentions 72 Earth Ghost as well (which looks pretty close to Sup Ji, if you ask me).

Anyway, hope these questions have some interest for people here!

2

Heres some information about Beggars style at this website

http://www.geocities.com/kungfu_galaxy/Southern/FongYang.html

3

Also try Leung Tings Icredible Skills of the Vagabonds his two books there is lots of information in these books.

4

thanks

Hi Firehawk - interesting site! Some of those forms sound vaguely familiar!

5

Mang Fu Ha Sahn

Hi Ao Qin,
If I remember correctly, earlier, members of Bak Mei Pai on this board said that they practice Mang Fu Ha Sahn in their curriculum.

I practice this form too from my line. I have a mixture of Northern and Southern Forms in my forms training.

I was told that this form is featured in Black Tiger Style, I see it listed in Beggar and Fong Yang/Gypsy Style and see it in a Fut Gar version of Leung Tien Chu’s line (1920’s).

I know nothing of Cheung Lai Cheun, but since you mention he may have learned some Beggar Style, perhaps Mang Fu Ha Sahn is the proof of the Beggar Style connection.

Please correct me if I am wrong, just an observation.

Cheers

Buddhapalm

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Ao Qin:
I have only seen the 2 books mentioned on this style (Shaolin Tiger Boxing, and Incredible Skills of the Vagabonds). Kung Fu Magazine had an article on it by Salvatore Canzonieri in the Dec/Jan 97 issue too. I studied this style briefly from a Sifu in Hong Kong, who called it Haak Foo Keun. I just learned one form called Gam Gong Kuen, which looked so much like Hung Ga. I can get his address if you want to contact him as he is still teaching. The style has a lot of different dummy forms as the gwandersh supposedly lived in the forest and trained on the trees which they used as dummyfs, I saw 2 of the sets which were very interesting.

Beggarfs style was known for its Drunken Boxing made famous by Sou Hut Yee, one of the ten tigers of Canton. In Bak Mei there are 2 forms that were from the style. Sup Ji Kau Da (cross pattern grabbing and striking) and Jeui Hut Yee Kuen (drunken beggars fist). CLC didnft teach Sup Ji Kau Da while in Canton but did teach Jeui Hut Yee, which he later left out probably because of its difficulty. My line calls it Jeui Kuen but other lines have the same form but use a different name, I forget what.

I donft know much of the Lee Ga style unfortunately, but I do know its different from the Lee Ga of the five southern family styles. I have an email address of a Sifu in KuangJau city who knows it if your interested.

Buddhapalm:
The form Man Foo Ha San didnt come from beggars style. It was an extension of the Man Foo Cheut Lum form that was compiled by several of CLC’s students.

Kei Lun

7

thank you

Hi Kei Lun, thanks for the info. However, I’m only interested in a theoretical discussion on this connection…

Sounds very intersting about the dummys - I’ve been enjoying my own work on them - what a difference it makes! I used to whack trees, but they hit back too hard!

You are a true wealth of knowledge on the arts!

Cheers - Ao Qin

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A theoretical disscussion? Hmmm, I dont know too much theoretical history. Sorry to jump in with my facts. Good luck eh.

Kei Lun

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Gypsy is like saying “n1gger” its derogitory. We are called “Rom” or Romany, this has been common knowlege for at least 100 years and you would have lost wwII without our help behind enemy lines in germany.

If someone told you that their are ancient knife fighting secrets, they are trying to get a dollar from a stupid gaje. Theres one born every minute. I don’t doubt that there are some superb Rom knife fighters. We are being selectively exterminated in at least 10 countries, but this is ghetto/prison style, one our of neccesity.

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Kei Lun

The pattern, Jeui Hut Yee Kuen (drunken beggars fist), or Jeui Keun, sounds really interesting. A wee treasure from the vaults in Guangzhou.

My Sifu’s grandfather was an accomplished CLF player, and Sifu has shown me some “parlour tricks” from his ancient memory of CLF drunken. Just a bit of fun and games, nothing serious. The thing is it always seemed like it would be possible to get the essence of Pak Mei into it. The story I heard was that many styles had a “drunken” form, or style. Somehow I suspect the word “Drunken” doesn’t say it all, as one would expect.

So, you can see, to hear that there is a “drunken” inspired pattern is very interesting, can you tell us anything about it? Holding the Cup? Carry the tray? Does that mean anything to you (or CLF for that matter?)

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this and that

Kei Lun - your keen “sardonic wit” is misplaced. I appreciate your taking the time to share what you know of the arts - I simply meant I haven’t the time (or motivation) to follow up on your kind offer of references on this topic.

Stacey - I apologize if I gave offense by using this term - I had no idea it was derogatory - maybe you could educate us all better by explaining the root of this word - where did it come from?

Toodles - Ao Qin

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Stacey

The Romany people are cool! Did you know they have been traced to the north of India by DNA testing?

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The wanders’ styles are usually composites of many not defined to any one particular stylistic attribute. rather they contain many elements of different styles especially those more prominent. The methods are simple direct and efficient, using whatever means to survive dealing with one to many.

When I was young I studied Hung style with my teacher Wong who then also taught me what I later discovered to be Bak Mei, Mok Ga etc… and in fact although it was known to us as Hung, I have found our SupJi to contain 2 more sections to that of the Bak Mei, forms such as Dragon & Tiger, Snake & Crane, 10 animals etcc…were unfound in the popular wongfeihong Hung Ga…etc…

Recently, through research (and soon to be more) it has been found to be the styles of the Hong Men societys’ (triads /revoloutionaries) and thus the resulting mix of different skill sets.

Rgds

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I always thought that the “Sam-Mun” set came from the “Beggers style”

have been wrong before,will check.

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Bak Mei is a mix

Through looking at Jung Shee Cheung Lai Chuen and his rather indepth background he had BEFORE training in Bak Mei Pai, it would be rather foolish to assume he would not take the best of what he had been taught up to that point and teach others. There are forms from Gypsy/Wanderers style, Lung Ying which he must have added to the forms from Bak Mei Pai.

I have heard that there were only 5 Bak Mei forms originally, and that the other forms were taken from the other styles he had indepth experience with.

Anyone want to run with this?

In Boston,

Dale

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Kei lun

Thanks for the breakdown, why didnt CLC teach sup jee in guangzhou?

surely the sup jee was easier then drunken form! any help would be cool, also is the sup jee today different from what was taught then? I know there is different versions but just interested, as in a long or short form or did it resemble sek sze but shorter.

cheers
Garry:)

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gypsy- from egyptian. They were thought to be from Egypt.

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Ao Qin:
Sorry, I misunderstood, but I didnft mean to dump too much info there. What does gsardonich mean? The biggest word I know is gcardboardboxh! Just kidding.

Yum Cha:
All gdrunken stylesh were derived from the g8 Drunken Immortalsh, a series of 8 forms. Other styles that have incorporated it are: Northern 7 star mantis, Choy Lee Fut, Bak Mei, Wanders Style, Hung Fut, Ying Jaau Faan Ji Moon (eagle claw), Wushu, etc.

Drunken is well suited to the circular motions of Choy Lee Fut. They complement eachother well as drunken by itself is not too powerful.

Drunken is also well suited to Bak Mei, but the flavor is completely different. In Bak Mei there are a great deal of wrist strikes as well as ground movement found in the form. Its interesting too that the gphoenix eyeh is now moved to the second knuckle (of the middle finger), in order to form the cup hand. Its tough to train this one.
In the Daai Sek See form (daai sup ji) there is one drunken movement called gsin yan ging jauh, which is a wrist strike from a side cat stance.

Dale Dugas:
Bak Mei is not a mix of styles. Bak Mei is not like the 3 other styles that are found within. Dragon style is quite similar, but in the KuangZhou schools Bak Mei and Lung Ying are distinctly different physically. As well the Ying Jau Leem Kiu found in both styles (but from Lung Ying) do not resemble eachother. Wanders style is close in appearance to Hung Ga, which of course is nothing like Bak Mei. And Lee Ga does have slightly similar power, but the appearance is also quite different. Bak Mei is a method of power and a set of principles set to maximize this power. If you put these principles into any style it will transform into Bak Mei, like the adopted styles did.
There were originally only 4 forms in Bak Mei: Gau Bo Toei, Sup Baat Moh Kiu Gung, Man Foo Cheut Lum, and Wiu Wan Seung Kwai (double crutch form). Some also say that Ng Hang Moh was an original from Juk Fat Wun, but since it was an unfinished form that may not have been likely.
The other forms were borrowed and newly created. These were brought in to ease the transition through the levels, as the existing forms were simply too advanced for anyone to begin with.

Fiercest Tiger:
Im not sure what you mean but Ill try. In KuangZhou CLC taught Siu Sek See Kuen and Daai Sek See Kuen; it was originally one form but broken in half and the second half (daai sek see) was doubled/repeated. Some call these Siu Sup Ji and Daai Sup Ji as they are crosspatterns. In HK, CLC eliminated Siu Sek See in favor of Jik Bo Biu Jee, and Daai Sek See became Sek See Kuen (almost no modification).
I have heard of Sek See Sup Ji, which may just be the Sek See form. I saw Man Kwong Fongfs Sup Ji Kuen and it didnft resemble either form, but did have many movements from Daai Sup Ji Kuen

Kei Lun

19

Kei Lun

Thanks thats what i meant, sup jee forms small and large, large sup jee is now called sek sze i believe.

What does macau pak mei look like in regards to all the others is it similar to futsan pak mei?

thanks
Garry:)

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Originally posted by kei lun
[B]Yum Cha:
All ?gdrunken styles?h were derived from the ?g8 Drunken Immortals?h, a series of 8 forms. Other styles that have incorporated it are: Northern 7 star mantis, Choy Lee Fut, Bak Mei, Wanders Style, Hung Fut, Ying Jaau Faan Ji Moon (eagle claw), Wushu, etc.

Drunken is well suited to the circular motions of Choy Lee Fut. They complement eachother well as drunken by itself is not too powerful.

Drunken is also well suited to Bak Mei, but the flavor is completely different. In Bak Mei there are a great deal of wrist strikes as well as ground movement found in the form. Its interesting too that the ?gphoenix eye?h is now moved to the second knuckle (of the middle finger), in order to form the cup hand. Its tough to train this one.

>>>>>> Sounds cool!

In the Daai Sek See form (daai sup ji) there is one drunken movement called ?gsin yan ging jau?h, which is a wrist strike from a side cat stance.

>>>>> Is that the little “Deng Choi” style flick? Sometimes done as a side hand that flips around into a phoenix attack?

Dale Dugas:
Bak Mei is not a mix of styles. Bak Mei is not like the 3 other styles that are found within. Dragon style is quite similar, but in the KuangZhou schools Bak Mei and Lung Ying are distinctly different physically. As well the Ying Jau Leem Kiu found in both styles (but from Lung Ying) do not resemble eachother. Wanders style is close in appearance to Hung Ga, which of course is nothing like Bak Mei. And Lee Ga does have slightly similar power, but the appearance is also quite different. Bak Mei is a method of power and a set of principles set to maximize this power. If you put these principles into any style it will transform into Bak Mei, like the adopted styles did.
There were originally only 4 forms in Bak Mei: Gau Bo Toei, Sup Baat Moh Kiu Gung, Man Foo Cheut Lum, and Wiu Wan Seung Kwai (double crutch form). Some also say that Ng Hang Moh was an original from Juk Fat Wun, but since it was an unfinished form that may not have been likely.
The other forms were borrowed and newly created. These were brought in to ease the transition through the levels, as the existing forms were simply too advanced for anyone to begin with.

>>>>>> Well said.

Kei Lun [/B]