I have read alot on the internet that these systems share much in common. Some sites also state that the early masters of these styles must have collaborated with each other. Can anyone tell me the reason for this assumption. Also what are the parallels between these styles? Any feedback is appreciated.
Someone else can probably say it better, but the main qualities that I notice are:
short, high stances with rapid weight shifts and shuffling steps
close-up fighting, lots of bridging with the forearms and use of forward pressure to check the opponents weapons, and to roll or slide over, under or around his defenses while still controlling the part.
use of short power, once you get in and make contact
PLC has got it. Also, they often share centre-line theory and the use of straight rather than round strikes (as preference).
Generally, the basic theories are similar.
These styles that you mentioned are most definitely intertwined. The history of Wing Chun says that the 5 elders of the southern Shaolin temple got together to create a gnew systemh of kung fu to counter all existing kung fu (not my story, just telling what I heard). When the temple was destroyed they all went off in their own directions. NG MUI created Wing Chun, Bak Hok (a version of it), Lung Ying (later refined by LYK) and Phoenix Eye Fist style. They are all quite similar me thinks. JI SIN also passed down a line of Wing Chun, as well as Hung Gar which although has low traditional stances does have a lot of bridge hands similar to Wing Chun (it has been compared many times before). BAK MEI monk passed on his unnamed art greatly resembling wing chun, and as I have heard it the founder of SPM was a student of Bak Mei monk (correct me if Im wrong). Bak Mei and Lung Ying met from CLC and LYK, and its hard to tell how much they influenced eachother at that time.
These are the Hakka Arts which all share the same characteristics; i.e. high stances, short bridge hands, similar power generation, centerline theory, and all have the gphoenix eye fisth! I think for modern practitioners, whichever art they have dedicated themselves to, it would be valuable to check out the other Hakka Arts to understand your style, and see it from a different angle. The He Jing Dao Association in China is a center for the Hakka Arts.
Kei Lun
observations
It’s always seemed to me that Hung Gar and Wing Chun resemble each other in more ways than one (bong sao’s, vertical fist punching, mirror blocks, bridging concepts, etc.). In fact, the Siu Lum Tao form seems in my mind to have much in common with the opening / breathing section of Foo Hok Seung Ying. Of course, I don’t know either form - just my observation.
Hi Kei Lun - I’ve always meant to ask you - why there are always “squares” (and oddly spelled words) throughout your posted messages? It’s always followed by a “g”, or “h”. What’ s the secret code?
kei lun:appreciate your post-
pretty decent views on the relationships between the southern hands. Each in their own way have built on stances which are both solid and mobile and the ability to have both short and long power. But then they have gone their own way in the details.
Perhaps the first section of Tiger Crane does resemble some wing chun but I would say that the other styles (s. mantis, white eyebrow) resemble wing chun in fighting.
Hung Gar’s fighting does not resemble wing chun at all!
To add to the list of similarities, all of those styles have sinkign elbow energies and the knees are in. They are connected when in use.
lup sao
I would say one of the predominant differences between Wing Chun and SPM is the use of lup sao. Yes, both systems incorporate it - but from my experience, SPM seems to utilise more than WC. Thoughts?
need some help here…
What does lup sau mean?
I looked it up in the archives and just found more questions.
Tan da, tan sao, pak sao, lup sao -
Is there a place where these are all described? I probably know them, but don’t know their names.
Thanks.
Thanks, that helps. Some of those sound like stuff I’ve learned.
lop dar- rolling, grabbing/ grasping with a punch
I assume you mean punching with the other hand, right?
fook sau- a palm down forward block going towards your center line( sort of) not really a block but it would go over an incoming strike at an angle going forwards towards the oppenent, going fomr the outside to the inside, defending and attacking at the same time while bridging( if that makes any sense to you)
Yup, that makes perfect sense to me. Does it matter whether you attack with palm, fingertips or fist?
Lop Sau.
In training we have never heard of lop sau…Larp Sau (excuse the spelling but this is not a grabbing technique) and Sok Sau which is a grabbing technique and found in nearly every one of our forms often used in conjunction with Narp Sau in the forms or sometime double with a downward motion and a shoulder barge. As in the finishing moves of Saam Bo Pin Kui
Could someone please enlighten me a litle as to what you mean by Lop Sau, Sifu is back from visiting Hungary in september I will have to ask him about that. But in the mean time could you explain a little more. The technique you call Fook Sau sounds like(if you use both arms at the same time) Bao Jong - Covering Hands simultaneous counter and attack as are all the techniques in CG SPM
Regards
mantis-1
Romanization of words sure does make it hard to communicate… i wonder if all the different students had this much trouble sin the olden days 
As far as i know, Lap/Lop/Larp Sau is like a jerking hand, no real set position apart from basic training. Used to jerk and take your partners centre and allow you to attack his centreline. I think it’s a common thing in many systems… 
david
Since were on the topic, I was told long ago that the founder of SPM (Sam Dot, I believe) learned from Bak Mei monk. Does anyone know anything about that, or where there might be some history pertaining to that on the net?
Is there really squares and letters in my posts? I wasnft aware, my computer is not in English so perhaps the text my computer uses is not a standard one. On my display everything seems fine so I didnft know. As for the goddly spelled wordsh, thatfs just my own neglect of the language, I donft speak English too much and quite seldome write it so its getting rusty. Sumimasen!
Kei Lun
hi Kei Lun, sorry i can’t help with your question
Just wanted to say that the square appears where an apostrophe should be, so my guess is it’s because ur keyboard is not English standard…
no big deal lol
david
Hi guys
Hi Kei Lun, you going to the dinner?
The funny characters in your posts are vain attempts to interpret non-standard alphanumeric characters, like apostrophies, quotes, etc, etc. It happens in your email too. Just one of those things.
I have a question though, I’m told Lam Sek was Grand Master Cheung Lai Cheuns first teacher. He healed him following a childhood accident that nearly crippled Grand Master, and taught him a pattern, that we come to call Sek Se, Stone Lion. It is actually Sek for Lam Sek, or at least thats my understanding.
Did I read somewhere that Lam Sek was a well known Southern Praying Mantis Master? Is it the same person?
Sek
I also have been told that the name originally was called “Sek Se” for the name of the sifu, and that somewhere down the line it was transformed into “Stone Lion”, due to a missunderstanding concerning the form’s origins.
i remember a post by a very erudite Guangzhou lineage person living in Canada though, who seemed to have a great grasp on how exactely this form was taught, how the version we all practice is but half of original form,etc. Maybe he knows more about this as there appears to be many changes in teaching over the years by CLC
hi there… lup…lop or larp sao is not a grasping tech. but rather a hooking tech in our style… designed to shock the opponents energy and uproot his structure… tan… or tarn sao in our style is an upward flicking wrist… quite different from wing chun tan sao… our general grasping fist is cum na anyhow this is just a quickie to indicate how different weords mean different things… just like hole and whole…
ohhh… and by the way my old Sifu used mainly english words to describe strikes because he taught/teaches mainly westerners…this makes it hard often to know what variouis chinese terms actually are… thus typing here holds such limited form of kung-fu communication… it is a shame that technology does not allow for us to touch hands over the net… because ‘one touch and all is known’ my art requires practice not talk… only then can we really understand each other…
in my limited understanding of cantonese: lap sau means like a jerking hand, which is quick and shocking… not pulling or whatever. It’s more explosive. tan sau is like a dispersing hand…
interesting how many techniques share similar names - may help us to see what the essence of the names mean
david
Hey Yum Cha,
Long time no hear eh. I dont think Ill be able to make it to dinner due to a heavy work and training load.
Yeah, the Sek See form was named after Lam Sek. But I dont know much about him except that he passed down the Drunken Form of Sou Hut Yee.
EAZ:
were you talking about me there? I did mention before that originally there was one form called Sek See Keun (Stone Lion Fist). It was later seperated into 2 forms; Siu Sek See and Daai Sek See, which were also known as Siu Sup Ji and Daai Sup Ji. The latter, Daai Sek See, is repeated between the bow and the ending. Later the Siu Sek See form was replaced with Jik Bo Biu Jee Keun, and Daai Sek See became known as Sek See. It has been altered very little between the KwangZhau and Hong Kong schools.
Siu Sek See, Daai Sek See, and Saam Moon Baat Gwa Keun all make up the form Sei Moon Baat Gwa Keun (4 gates 8 trigrams fist).
Oh, Tan Sau means “spreading arm” because thats what it does. Bak Mei uses Tok Sau, which is also found in Wing Chun. It means “lifting” or “pushing up hand” which is used similar to Wing Chun’s Tan Sau. In Wing Chun the Tok Sau is used to push up on the opponents elbow, just as the name describes.
These names dont need to be translated because the meanings are sometimes figurative and sometimes dirrect, but dont make much sense either way. The Chinese names are easier to remember, just the romanization is comfusing.
KeiLun