You may be one of the oldest members here and by the way that you post it’s very hard to tell the difference, or too come to that particular conclusion….
You just keep falling, falling and falling, and cant get up and you’re still rolling down hill in a ball of flames… I miss your point, remember it’s all about if I mix arts or not…
It’s seems to me that you cant do anything with a straight face but stay in the shadows of deception and falsehood, changing the subject to h0m0msexuallty and then typos… Why not address your statement below when asks to prove your charge
[QUOTE=anerlich;888282]But, but … you teach both WC and boxing. How can you do that with a straight face if you believe that statement? Come on. [/QUOTE]
You are a grown man acting like a child, with a racecar bed, superman sheets and a purple stuff-talking dinosaur placed in the corner, you must still stay at home…
You may be one of the oldest members here and by the way that you post it’s very hard to tell the difference, or too come to that particular conclusion….
You just keep falling, falling and falling, and cant get up and you’re still rolling down hill in a ball of flames… I miss your point, remember it’s all about if I mix arts or not…
It’s seems to me that you cant do anything with a straight face but stay in the shadows of deception and falsehood, changing the subject to h0m0msexuallty and then typos… Why not address your statement below when asked to prove your charge
[QUOTE=anerlich;888282]But, but … you teach both WC and boxing. How can you do that with a straight face if you believe that statement? Come on. [/QUOTE]
You are a grown man acting like a child, with a racecar bed, superman sheets and a purple stuff-talking dinosaur placed in the corner, you must still stay at home…
[QUOTE=Mr Punch;887660]FWIW, Yip Man is said to have said to breathe naturally. AFAIK, this was always a major difference between wing chun and many other kf styles. And I don’t know of any mention he made of the dantien at all. Anyone supposedly speaking from a Yip Man lineage about dantien breathing care to back that up?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Graychuan;888122]Funny thing is…in the Iron Palm practice of my lineage…[/quote]Hey Chris, so is this your Yip Man Wing Chun’s lineage too? You’re lucky, I don’t think most of Yip Man’s student’s got any IP.
Who’s your link to Yip again?
Also in our WC the feet follow the hands, the hands strike and release energy with the breath. So our breathing catalyzes our whole body’s energy from the ground up. Ours is a Yip Man lineage.
So, back to my original question: do you have any quotes from Yip Man (kuen kuit etc, or just anecdotal stuff would do) through your Sigung, or failing that, even some from your Sigung, that back up this way of teaching as being from Yip Man or maybe his teachers?
William Cheung and Leung Ting are infamous for having stuff they made up and attributed to Yip (whether that’s true or not I don’t pretend to know) to name but two.
Sifu Ali was taught this same method. Well, of course - he is your teacher, right? Sorry, don’t get your point.
[QUOTE=HardWork8;888151]Well that is going to be en eye opener for some of the Yip Man lineage people here whose sifus did not bother to teach them the chi kung aspects of this art.:eek:[/quote]No, not really. Yip Man is famous for having taught loads of different people loads of different things. Doesn’t mean he hated them all or didn’t trust some of them or whatever, though doubtless there are some examples of preferential treatment. It’s certainly not a question of what sifu’s did or didn’t bother to teach. On the contrary, in a world of unproven competition business like wing chun, I would suspect that if one sifu had an extra piece of the puzzle he’d be dying to show people to get more students in… may even make it up to do so…!
Shame you have to think of everything (er, well, your way) as the one true way and everything else as bad kung fu. There are many variations even within ‘good kungfu’.
What I said about Yip Man saying keep the breathing natural comes from his two sons by the way.
One last point: if you think fighting while keeping your breathing natural is in some way the easy way out, it just shows you’ve never fought in your life or had any practice that even resembles it. It’s a very difficult skill to breathe naturally during a fight.
Finally I came back from my vacations and I am preparing to leave London for warmer climates. Meanwhile I am trying to enlighten some of this forum’s kickboxers to the intricacies of real kung fu and boy it ain’t easy, because nothing seems to be going through to them.
Shame you didn’t take me up on my offer to be enlightened when I was in London. I’m always up for an exchange in enlightenment…
[QUOTE=couch;888310]“Real Kung-Fu” was never meant for fast results, hey? Where do you think all this Kung-Fu came from?[/quote]
The last time I looked, it came from China or are you going to quote me a book that says that kung fu comes from North Dakota?
Fair enough and of course that kung fu can trace its roots to primitive forms of fighting, but IT EVOLVED BEYOND THAT!
And that is what I am trying to make you lot understand!
And as I mentioned there were surely short cuts during times of war and conflict and also remember that just like the armies of today the armies of that period had more efficient ways of killing their adversary, namely weapons, albeit primitive ones.
So do all other kung fu styles, including the ones that are far superior to Wing Chun!
So do other kung fu styles and some do that same thing better than Wing Chun!
I don’t know of any kung fu style that advocates fighting cleanly.
There are other styles of kung fu that have been practised by chinese gangsters/mafiosos most of which take longer to master than Wing Chun. Why do you think that these “functional” fighters chose the more complicated styles?
No one says that Wing Chun or any other kung fu style was designed to “get the job done” slowly. However, if it is to be learnt properly, then it must be practised holistically, just like any other kung fu style.
To be honest, followers of the popular culture aspects of martial arts do not last for too long in any of the traditional schools that I have trained in.
A lot of “rice bowl” filling goes on in the “modern”, “functional” and “new and improved” MA scene as well. Are they all bad???
Your description of what I assume to be all internal martial arts as BS is very offensive to REAL kung fu practitioners.
Also, “qualified” acupuncturist does not necessarilly mean qualified kung fu sifu of Traditional kung fu!
Then open a kickboxing school with Kung fu influences. Sanjuro can take care of the Ontario branch, but I warn you he actually has done chi kung during his “Iron Palm” training and he even admitted(kind of apologetically) to it having helped him with the training.
See, you already will have arguments over the “internal BS” with Sanjuro, and he is a glorified kickboxer if there ever was one.
If you decide to open a branch in Australia you can ask Anerlich to take care of that branch. On the surface he may just look like your average Glorified Kickboxer “kung fu-ist” but did you know that he practises Russian Chi kung? Furthermore he has researched it too, aparrently more than he has researched Wing Chun.
Thank you for the link. The material seems to be more hypophesis and opinion than fact. And as you stated the whole Shaolin story could have perhaps sprung from popular culture" or PERHAPS NOT!
Whatever the truth it is a well known fact that kung fu’s history goes back a long way before that of Shaolin. In fact kung fu was practised in many temples and not just the Shaolin monestary.
And that paragraph is flowed to start with. What makes the writer, or indeed you think that the internals solely refer to isoteric concepts? Because they don’t! They may do on one level and if so what do you find objectionable about isoteric concepts?
Is it a case of “I don’t understand it, therefore it is isoteric”? Did you know that the internals also refer to the training of tendons in a particular manner? Did you know that the different types of exhaling affect the way power is issued?
Did you know that the various chi kung exercises can help in the development of extreme relaxation which contribute in the development and issuing of internal power and of course the “listening” sensitivity? And finally, are you familiar with what it is that I am talking about?
That is what some people say. Are you sure of that fact? I am asking this because from my experience the sifus who hold back will teach the majority of their students the SAME STUFF while they will teach the “deeper” aspects and secrets to a chosen few. I have never heard of a master teaching “loads of stuff to loads of people” and in my humble opinion I doubt that Yip Man did so either.
It certainly can be because it is a fact that a lot of sifus don’t bother to teach what they don’t know.
Others who know may be choosey (and quite rightly so) as to whom they teach the higher level aspects.
I have even heard of some who will teach the lesser known aspects and up to a point the more secret stuff for the right money.
Hey what do I care about sports competitions. If Wing Chun and indeed other styles of kung fu are good enough for gangsters then they are good enough for me.
Not when most of the internal training can be considered boring and irrelevant to “real fighting”.
I suspect that some you lot would be out of the door (and confused) within 15 minutes of seeing some of the exercises that we practise at my current (none-wing chun) school.
Well that they do for sure. Sometimes they call it confidential training that they received from their masters and other times and on the other side of the scale they refer to what they teach as “functional”, “New and Improved”, “Street Effective”, “Modern”,etc. Kung Fu.:rolleyes:
Shame that you don’t see exactly what I am trying to say here and that is (AGAIN) that the internals and other aspects such as the forms/IP etc, are part of kung fu and anyone claiming to practise or indeed teach any kung fu style should teach them holisticaly otherwise he is teaching a b@stardized art that he probably does not understand himself. That is all!
Yet those variations are made by real masters (unless you mean some other art by saying “good kung fu”) and not Glorified Kickboxers and they do stick to the principles and concepts of a given art. If they don’t then these masters more often than not will change the name of their arts to reflect that. And that is what people teaching Wing Chun flavored kickboxing should do and that is change the name. CHANGE THE NAME!
And what I said about the way to breath naturally through the dantien stands!
From day one of my Wing Chun training I was taught to breath naturally through the dan tien and that went for contact sparring as well. Of course, during striking exhalation is made through the dantien in various ways depending on the type strike and the level of the student. It is not easy but you have to learn it like everything else in kung fu.
The easy way out is breathing naturally like boxer.
First of all as you rightly quoted I was on my vacations (you should read what you quote) secondly I am not into “intenet dating” not unless you are a lonely housewife looking for some fun. Thirdly and finally and it is nothing personal but I don’t find “machismo” from your part of the world and indeed from here in the UK and most of Western Europe, intimidating.
It is easy to ACT tough and delinquent when if something goes wrong you have your “Human Rights”, The police, lawyers and indeed the law itself that protects you.
99 of the indeginious tough guys/“gangsters” here in London wouldn’t last 10 seconds in the wrong part of towns in countries like Colombia, Brasil or parts of Eastern and south Eastern Europe.
So go and challenge a “tough guy” from your own country or next time you are in London (and if the climate doesn’t kill you first) then feel free to challenge one of the pub tough guys here, but I warn you they are fat and have some mean looking tatoos, however, some of them do wear nice earings.:rolleyes:
Enlightenment would be good end for you but I warn you again that it involves a lot of Chi kung and meditation (preferably when you are NOT hitting the punchbag);)
[QUOTE=HardWork8;888294]I was “assimilated” into Glorified Kickboxing during my teens, in the 1980’s when I joined and trained in a school that claimed to be teaching “Chinese Boxing”. However what they taught was nothing more than a glorified form of kickboxing(so beloved by the many “kung fu-ists” posting in this forum), and honestly speaking it was not a bad school at all, as far as kickboxing was concerned but it WAS NOT REAL KUNG FU![/QUOTE]
I suspect that some you lot would be out of the door (and confused) within 15 minutes of seeing some of the exercises that we practise at my current (none-wing chun) school.[/QUOTE]
99% of the indeginious tough guys/“gangsters” here in London wouldn’t last 10 seconds in the wrong part of towns in countries like Colombia, Brasil or parts of Eastern and south Eastern Europe. [/QUOTE]
I wondered when Kung Fu Magazine Forum’s resident cognitively challenged member (see, I can be politically correct too and I didn’t use the R word) would show up.
So how have you been?
Are you still on your medication?
Have you finally started training kung fu or are you still just a wrestler?
You have been posting in the kung fu forums for a long time and all this time without actually having practised kung fu. So my advice to you is find a good school and start training and don’t worry no one will hurt you and if they do then tell those nice men in the white jackets who take care of you and they will tell those “bad” kung fu men not to mess with you. Ok?
Now run along and find a man-friend to wrestle with and let the rest of us adults talk or in the case of some, attempt to talk about kung fu, OK?
Sorry, but I don’t have too much time to waste on you as the Glorified Kickboxers are taking most of my typing time. Once I enlighten them then maybe I will do the same for you wrestlers.
Take care now.
PS. This thread is about kung fu, more precisely Wing Chun, which is a style of kung fu - just in case you didn’t know. I know that it is difficult but you may attempt to add to the thread and its general subject matter.
Christ. I actually asked Unkokusai to post about the subject matter of a kung fu thread. I hope that I don’t regret this later on.
You have been posting in the kung fu forums for a long time and all this time without actually having practised kung fu. So my advice to you is find a good school and start training and don’t worry no one will hurt you .[/QUOTE]
I have “actuallly practiced,” or are you so stupid you forgot? That’s how I know “they won’t hurt” me. :rolleyes:
How’s everything down in the basement all by yourself, loser?
You just keep falling, falling and falling, and cant get up and you’re still rolling down hill in a ball of flames… I miss your point, remember it’s all about if I mix arts or not…
What’s this fixation with falling down hills?
OK, you don’t mix arts. It sounded to me like you did, and that might actually have some merit, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt since the notion of it upsets you so. Happy now?
You are a grown man acting like a child, with a racecar bed, superman sheets and a purple stuff-talking dinosaur placed in the corner, you must still stay at home…
That’s the best you’ve got?
Wow, you really know how to hurt a guy … yawn
You need to “Grow Up”, or lose that chip on the shoulder.
[QUOTE=HardWork8;888419]That is what some people say. Are you sure of that fact? [/quote]Yep. It’s well documented and it’s obvious through the myriad of differences even among his first gen students.
I suspect that some you lot would be out of the door (and confused) within 15 minutes of seeing some of the exercises that we practise at my current (none-wing chun) school.
Some of any lot would, sure. I’ve trained a lot of internals and would be interested, providing it wasn’t full of snide patronising wee snots like yourself… of course, of whom there seem to be a higher proportion than ‘regular’ ‘external’ schools, but that’s another subject.
Shame that you don’t see exactly what I am trying to say here and that is (AGAIN) that the internals and other aspects such as the forms/IP etc, are part of kung fu and anyone claiming to practise or indeed teach any kung fu style should teach them holisticaly otherwise he is teaching a b@stardized art that he probably does not understand himself. That is all!
I see and have replied, enlarged and asked for expansion on to most of your points. It’s a shame you think you have all the answers and keep repeating the same stuff and tarring everyone with the same brush.
Yet those variations are made by real masters (unless you mean some other art by saying “good kung fu”) and not Glorified Kickboxers and they do stick to the principles and concepts of a given art. If they don’t then these masters more often than not will change the name of their arts to reflect that. And that is what people teaching Wing Chun flavored kickboxing should do and that is change the name. CHANGE THE NAME!
Quick round up AFAIK (and anyone is welcome to correct me on any of this…)
WSL: no mention of dantien. Said breathe naturally.
William Cheung: scant mention of dantien, although did publish a book about internals in SLT IIRC, precious little actual training in it.
Leung Ting: dunno. Haven’t heard of any of it from people with 12 years upward in his line.
Victor Kan: vehemently anti all that. Said breathe naturally.
Sam Kwok (and the Yip Bros): no mention. Says breathe naturally.
Lo Man Kam (Yip Man’s nephew and also no slouch at CLF), Duncan Leung etc: no dantien - just breathe naturally.
Dunno bout CST, Moy Yat, Augustine Fong etc… Seem to remember Joy (from Fong’s line) on this board saying the just breathe naturally thing holds.
Are any of the above qualified to be masters in your view, or are they all just unqualified kickboxers? Maybe it’s the most unified point in Yip Man WC!
BTW: this just breathe naturally thing is NOT ‘just breathe naturally through the dantien’, it’s… well, just breathe naturally!
BTW 2: I’m not saying that breathing through the dantien is bad, or that your way is wrong. I can see the good and bad of both traditional ways.
And what I said about the way to breath naturally through the dantien stands!
OK, here’s a question I’ve asked you before, and you answered with something like why should you teach me and I wouldn’t understand anyway…
I breathe (normally) through my nose and out through my mouth (I can do it with any combination of the above…!) using muscles in my diaphragm and between my ribs to pull down on the lower part of my ribcage, and expand my lungs to bring air into them. How exactly do you breathe through/into your dantien?
(BTW3 - I do have the answer, since I’ve practised a lot of internals: I can explain it very clearly in terms of physiology and the physical process. You?)
From day one of my Wing Chun training I was taught to breath naturally through the dan tien and that went for contact sparring as well. Of course, during striking exhalation is made through the dantien in various ways depending on the type strike and the level of the student. It is not easy but you have to learn it like everything else in kung fu.
The easy way out is breathing naturally like boxer.
Again, you’re not listening to me, and repeating the same stuff. Breathing naturally as I was taught in Wing Chun is not an easy way out. (BTW4, breathing like a boxer isn’t that easy either - unless you’ve been taught and practised) It is also not the same as breathing in boxing.
First of all as you rightly quoted I was on my vacations (you should read what you quote)…
I don’t think you were: September 2nd, remember?
Thirdly and finally and it is nothing personal but I don’t find “machismo” from your part of the world and indeed from here in the UK and most of Western Europe, intimidating.
What part of the world is that? I’m one of the least macho people you’ll meet. It’s also a shame that your paranoia and mouthboxing bull**** got you to believe my pseudo-macho badinage and to ignore the very real point that I was welcoming of the idea of learning and exchanging with you. I’ve met a lot of people from the net with exchanges that have started out as immature, paranoid and challenging as your own and have ended up as exchanges of varying usefulness. I’m old fashioned and traditonally kungfuey in that way: I believe you can learn something from everyone, and am always prepared to empty my cup.
It is easy to… snipped for bull****
There then follows a lot of fatuous stereotyping, unfounded comments and passive-aggressive posturing irrelevant to any subject here, which I can’t find it within me to answer.
[QUOTE=Mr Punch;888444]I breathe (normally) through my nose and out through my mouth (I can do it with any combination of the above…!) using muscles in my diaphragm and between my ribs to pull down on the lower part of my ribcage, and expand my lungs to bring air into them. How exactly do you breathe through/into your dantien?[/QUOTE]
Not to nit-pick. The diaphragm contracts and pulls downward, while the intercostals contract and and allow the ribs to move farward and slightly upward. But I know where you’re going with this…
Just cuz I thought it might be interesting. For those of you with young children. Ever watch them breathing? (obviously when they aren’t tearing all over the room)
[QUOTE=SoCo KungFu;888448]Not to nit-pick. The diaphragm contracts and pulls downward, while the intercostals contract and and allow the ribs to move farward and slightly upward. But I know where you’re going with this…[/QUOTE]LOL, so spank me and call me Nellie!
My punctuation’s at fault (and me an English teacher too!), and my haste. I was meaning the diaphragm pulls down, and the intercostals expand the ribcage, not expand the lungs as such… didn’t know about the the upward direction: is that to counter the diaphragm pulling down and so cause the expansion?
[QUOTE=anerlich;888437]Don’t let Ali hear you, he seems to have “issues” with man-friends …[/QUOTE]
I seem to remember that you were the one who brought up the subject first and soon after that Unkokusai joined in with his “contributions”. I see a correlation there.
[QUOTE=Mr Punch;888457]LOL, so spank me and call me Nellie!
My punctuation’s at fault (and me an English teacher too!), and my haste. I was meaning the diaphragm pulls down, and the intercostals expand the ribcage, not expand the lungs as such… didn’t know about the the upward direction: is that to counter the diaphragm pulling down and so cause the expansion?[/QUOTE]
Eh…in normal tidal breathing its so slight you don’t even notice really. But when you’re huffin and puffin you can tell. As to why, don’t think there’s any special reason. The intercostals and the diaphragm work together to expand the cavity, thus decreasing pressure in the intrathoracic space. The negative pressure vacuum in association with the greater atmospheric pressure is what allows us to fill our lungs when we inspire. Same idea as a turkey baster only with air
Anyways just to add to what I said earlier about children. Children rely more heavily on their diaphragm than adults as their intercostals aren’t as developed. On the other hand adults tend to utilize the intercostals more and the diaphragm can atrophy (to a degree). So, are we training to achieve a higher technique so to say? Or simply trying to return to the “natural way?” I’m starting to sound like Uki
[QUOTE=SoCo KungFu;888459]Anyways just to add to what I said earlier about children. Children rely more heavily on their diaphragm than adults as their intercostals aren’t as developed. On the other hand adults tend to utilize the intercostals more and the diaphragm can atrophy (to a degree). So, are we training to achieve a higher technique so to say? Or simply trying to return to the “natural way?” I’m starting to sound like Uki ;)[/QUOTE]Actors and singers use their diaphragm to ‘project’ their voice more, but I wonder if they breathe in the same way when not performing.
Since adulthood is the ‘end’ process, and adults use the intercostals more than the diaphragm it is arguable that non-diaphragmatic breathing is more natural otherwise nature/evolution would have selected a balance between the two. Unless there are survival benefits to having better developed intercostals.
I’m just saying that what is ‘natural’ breathing is highly debatable.
Well, of course - he is your teacher, right? Sorry, don’t get your point.
