[QUOTE=CFT;888462]Actors and singers use their diaphragm to ‘project’ their voice more, but I wonder if they breathe in the same way when not performing.
Since adulthood is the ‘end’ process, and adults use the intercostals more than the diaphragm it is arguable that non-diaphragmatic breathing is more natural otherwise nature/evolution would have selected a balance between the two. Unless there are survival benefits to having better developed intercostals.
I’m just saying that what is ‘natural’ breathing is highly debatable.[/QUOTE]
Maybe…but at the same time is it not also true that through the course of our daily live we pick up bad habits which negatively affect our health. For example a very common one, posture. The way we walk, the way we stand, sit. I know I myself have an abnormal gait. Been that way for years. As a result now I’m trying to work with my PT to get it set back straight. It feels like I have one leg longer than the other, but its in my hips. Its quite obvious, I don’t walk “normal.” And for good laughs you outta see me run a treadmil.
Not agreeing or disagreeing. Just talking for the sake of…
Trust me, it wont be your last breath if you use your Dan tien.
But you said that they could have made things up too, didn’t you? And looking at some of the “variety” one can only assume that some aspects were made up and maybe even that some other aspects were evolved in a logical manner (within Wing Chun’s concepts and principles, that is).
And again, it would be the first time that I hear of a genuine grand master teaching a whole lot of different things to a whole lot of different people. Remember we are talking Wing Chun here and eventhough it is a richer art than many of its practitioners think, there is not that much to learn when you compare it with styles such as White Crane, Five Ancestor Fist and the various Praying Mantis styles,etc.
I wish I had a dime for every time I heard that and I also wish that I had a dime for everytime someone had told me that the internals are not relevant for combat.
Now that you have practised the internals, then tell me your honest view on their relevance for combat training.
Well, if you look hard enough then you may find some such schools as long as you don’t provoke the " snots" by acting like the king of the (Wing Chun) hill.
Maybe your unfamiliarity with certain internal concepts gives you the illusion that some internal practicioners are the way they are?
That is another matter that I would like the comment on. If you see a “regular” external school of kung fu, then there is something wrong. All kung fu styles including the so called “externals” were designed with internal training embedded within that manifest themselves at the higher levels of study. There are no totally external schools (nor internal ones either) of kung fu!
What determines the definition as “external” or “internal” is the emphasis that a given style places on them. That is why the idea of people practising Wing Chun as solely an external style is laughable.
I sometimes “repeat the same stuff” because sometimes what I say doesn’t sink in the first 15 times.
That is because sometimes “everyone” sings the same song as regards kung fu training.
Most of the masters in that list make living out of kung fu. One of the surest ways of putting off students is by emphasising “boring” Chi kung. Some may even teach the internal aspects to the more advanced students. Also it is well worth asking the sifu that recommends natural breathing, wether he means natural breathing through the dantien.
Also, William Cheung’s book on the internals has quite a few exercises.
In our school, breathe naturally means breathing through the dantien. I have seen this in other authentic kung fu schools as well. And to be honest, I hadn’t heard of natural chest breathing in kung fu (nor karate) until I started posting in internet MA forums.
Well, thank god for that.
Well to be honest. I don’t see the good in breathing from your chest. According to TCMA theory and what I have been taught in kung fu dantien breathing is healthier.
I don’t recall, but maybe I did in the heat of the discussion and then forgot.
I breath through my nose while my intention is placed at my lower abdomen and dan tien. The intention here leans on subtility and not tension.
There is hardly any chest movement. During strikes, breath is released from the pit of the stomach through the mouth (sometimes through the nose). The release of the breath is longer for more penetrative strikes and also emphasis is placed on the part of the abdomen/diaphram’s expansion or contraction depending on the type of the blow delivered.
When not striking one breaths naturally through the dan tien in a relaxed manner. The aim is to eventually breath that way all the time to make it NATURAL for real. Relaxed dan tien breathing also contributes to the higher level softness and sensitivity required in advanced training whereas a more tense manner of breathing inhibits hypersensitivity.
Some styles of kung fu advocate the placement of the tongue on the ceiling of the mouth others don’t. In my Wing Chun school we do both.
Well then hopefully you will have appreciated my explanation above.
I can explain it the way I did above in terms of the kung fu that I practise.
Well, I said what I said because logically speaking for most people in the West who breath naturally through the chest it is the easy way out when compared to the more unusual way of breathing naturally through the Dan tien.
While we are on the subject of the internals, it is worth mentioning that the training is multifaceted and involves other areas and levels and is not just about “deep breathing”.
I would still hazard a guess and say that it is more natural than dantien breathing.
I was out of the UK from the 19th of August till the 21st of September. To be fair, you wouldn’t have known that as only one member of this forum was aware that I was on vacation.
That might just correlate with most people who issue challenges through the internet.
I have been accused of a lot of things in my 45 years, but paranoia was never one of them.:eek:
I did so because on that occassion the mouthboxing bull**** was coming from you. You don’t believe me? Then perhaps you should go back and check your “invitation”.
You are mistaken about the paranoia and I only challenge the knowledge, not the person because, as far as I am concerned you can hit some of the Glorified Kickboxers on the head with the very same kung fu techniques that they say “don’t work” for the next 24 hours and the fact still wont sink in.
As far as I am concerned physically challenging or implying a challenge to someone through the internet is immature and can be seen as dare I say, paranoia on the part of the challenger.
Sorry, but at least on that occassion, you did not come across in that manner.
However, I am glad to hear that and let me emphasis again that until I started participating in internet forums I had not heard of natural chest breathing during kung fu practice. Also, I had not come across WC people who did not recognize the first part of Siu Lim Tao as on one level, a chi kung exercise.
[QUOTE=unkokusai;888434]I have “actuallly practiced,”[/quote]
Yes, you have practiced so much that you don’t even consider it worth putting in your profile.:rolleyes:
I think that you are the one who forgot that you haven’t got any reference when it comes to kung fu. I am afraid that it is back to the medication for you, old boy.
Of course “they” wont hurt you. Us real kung fu guys are very compassionate people and would never hurt the lesser evolved members of the human race, specially when they have, um, “special needs”, such as yourself.
By the way, it would be nice if you at least attempt to participate in the discussion at hand or otherwise just leave before the moderator gets fed up again!
[QUOTE=anerlich;888436]OK, you don’t mix arts. .[/QUOTE]
You knew that; before you put your statement out there, just like everyone else did, that’s why the major knuckle dragging on your behalf when asked to stay with the issue…
It to me seems every time you post, I picture your eyes turning into a big neon sign that says, Vacancy…
[QUOTE=anerlich;888436]OK, you don’t mix arts. .[/QUOTE]
You knew that; before you put your statement out there, just like everyone else did, thats why the major knuckle dragging on your behalf when asked to stay with the issue
It seems to me every time you post, I picture your eyes turning into a big neon sign that says, Vacancy
[QUOTE=anerlich;888436]OK, you don’t mix arts. .[/QUOTE]
You knew that; before you put your statement out there, just like everyone else did, thats why the major knuckle dragging on your behalf when asked to stay with the issue
It seems to me every time you post, I picture your eyes turning into a big neon sign; that says, Vacancy
[QUOTE=HardWork8;888480]Sheesh, I thought that even you would understand simple language.:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
They are actually invoking the assassination of an wing chun nightmare, they are actually Invoking the specter or an inspirational system such as wing chun or even kung fu as a whole…
And if one follows those guys, you will lose the rich ideal that’s imbedded the system within every mans hopes of being a complete martial artist as done by the TCMA’ist, and only to stay poor with the greed of advancement, from dealing with the ideal of instant deviation for self gratification…
It takes at least twelve of them to try to make one point; and on an authentic level, they’re still wrong…
[QUOTE=HardWork8;888480]Sheesh, I thought that even you would understand simple language.:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
They are actually invoking the assassination of an wing chun nightmare, they are actually Invoking the specter or an inspirational system such as wing chun or even kung fu as a whole…
And if one follows those guys, you will lose the rich ideal that’s imbedded the system within every mans hopes of being a complete martial artist as done by the TCMA’ist, and only to stay poor with the greed of advancement, from dealing with the ideals of instant deviation for self gratification…
It takes at least twelve of them to try to make one point; and on an authentic level, they’re still wrong…
[QUOTE=HardWork8;888480]Sheesh, I thought that even you would understand simple language.:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
They are actually invoking the assassination of an wing chun nightmare, they are actually invoking the specter or an inspirational system such as wing chun or even kung fu as a whole…
And if one follows those guys, you will lose the rich ideal that’s imbedded the system within every mans hopes of being a complete martial artist as done by the TCMA’ist, and only to stay poor with the greed of advancement, from dealing with the ideals of instant deviation for self gratification…
It takes at least twelve of them to try to make one point; and on an authentic level, they’re still wrong…
[QUOTE=HardWork8;888480]Sheesh, I thought that even you would understand simple language.:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
They are actually invoking the assassination of an wing chun nightmare, they are actually invoking the specter of an inspirational system such as wing chun or even kung fu as a whole
And if one follow those guys, you will lose the rich ideals thats imbedded the system within every man’s hopes of being a complete martial artist as done by the TCMAist, and only to stay poor with the greed of advancement, from dealing with the ideals of instant deviation for self gratification
It takes at least twelve of them to try to make one point; and on an authentic level, theyre still wrong
[QUOTE=anerlich;888301]OnTopic: the clip was OK.[/QUOTE]
Thanks, mane! I was thinking I could have kept the sticks pointed upward a little more (Thus the name Heaven Six. Has a lot to do with proper flow of striking or cutting with a blade.) but hey..I’ll only get better. Its fun stuff indeed.
[QUOTE=Ali. R;888488]They are actually invoking the assassination of an wing chun nightmare, they are actually invoking the specter or an inspirational system such as wing chun or even kung fu as a whole…
And if one follows those guys, you will lose the rich ideals that’s imbedded the system within every mans hopes of being a complete martial artist as done by the TCMA’ist, and only to stay poor with the greed of advancement, from dealing with the ideals of instant deviation for self gratification…
It takes at least twelve of them to try to make one point; and on an authentic level, they’re still wrong…
Sorry to enter the topic at such a late stage, BUT
What clip are we talking about here? What clip is expressing the use of Chi?
After reading through most of the latest posts it seems we have the believers and the non-believers thrashing out their differences, and for what?
1) WSL: no mention of dantien. Said breathe naturally.
2) William Cheung: scant mention of dantien, although did publish a book about internals in SLT IIRC, precious little actual training in it.
3) Leung Ting: dunno. Haven’t heard of any of it from people with 12 years upward in his line.
4) Victor Kan: vehemently anti all that. Said breathe naturally.
5) Sam Kwok (and the Yip Bros): no mention. Says breathe naturally.
6) Lo Man Kam (Yip Man’s nephew and also no slouch at CLF), Duncan Leung etc: no dantien - just breathe naturally.
6) Dunno bout CST, Moy Yat, Augustine Fong etc… Seem to remember Joy (from Fong’s line) on this board saying the just breathe naturally thing holds.
I would also recommend what HW8 suggested and actually ‘ask’ if the ‘breathing naturally’ comments are to be linked with ‘Chi’ at all, as I think most of them will agree that breathing naturally IS Chi training!
As far as I know, most of Ip Mans students would have been told not to worry about all this Chi business, as this tied Wing Chun to the other traditional arts at the time. Ip Man made a decision to remove most(if not all) traditional learning from his early students, and I’m sure I’ve read somewhere that his teaching was documented in three stages. Obviously, for fighting it was understood that Chi was not necessary BUT Ip Man only taught people to fight to help promote the school! He only taught a few ‘how to teach’ apparently.
FWIW I also have to say that all the chatter about Dantien is irrelevant, especially if we’re only talking of ONE dantien (below the navel) From my studies, three (of seven) dantiens are basically present and worked on first in most Martial Arts. Another analogy would be to link these practises to the three forms, especially since we first learn with our ‘head’ in SLT, but I don’t want anyone to quote me on that one!
The dantien is best simply described as energetic fields EXACTLY the same as the Shakra, which also means that there are basically six in the body (head, chest, waist - front & back) and one point outside the body (above the head)
If anyone has actually trained AND felt these ‘connections’, I’d like to hear from you!!
One thing I can say is that I have trained these principles basically to achieve, what Sifu referred to as, an Iron Shirt. I also know that Lee Shing passed much of this training to Uncle Goh and others, so we as a family do still hold on to this traditional approach to training. No mysteries involved fme BUT overall results for everyone who trained were priceless.
Keep in mind, ALL of my brothers had more than ten years experience in other families before they learnt anything about Lee Shing family. They were also programmed to NOT believe or even think about Chi development.
I don’t know of any one bruv that would say now that Chi doesn’t exist, but hey we did have a Sifu that could demonstrate as well as explain what all the fuss was about! I miss those days…
Its only typical for you to raise your in head up from a condescending pit hole of acceptance, as you side with whom ever feeling the need to belong
You have flip/flop on these issues many times leaving a paper trail a mile long, on how great it is to study the right way, even explaining techniques and giving everyone an ideal that doing something the right way, is the best way
Its either an group afford, or youre saying nothing at all, while the masses try to dissocialize the benefits of dealing with the internals and heath productivity within the system.
Its your thoughts as well, that are so damaging to those who seek the truth, as a blind man holding a rail that guides him directly into one-way traffic
[QUOTE=unkokusai;888518]A little early in the day to be so drunk, isn’t it?[/QUOTE]
Its said, that nothing more is exciting then watching the fisherman being pull into the water by the fish; well kokusai, meet the water Your tantalizing thoughts and replies are meaningless and hold no true substance in debate
While at the same time you seem to be posting as if youre staring at some womans panty line through your living room window
And saying, its so sparkling it was almost mesmerizing, as it send little starbursts through my window, ricocheting hope within the realm of loneliness As you begin to cry, and say, Is there a friend for the friendless?
[QUOTE=unkokusai;888518]A little early in the day to be so drunk, isn’t it?[/QUOTE]
Anyone who reads this particular thread knows that the only reason you even posted was to give HW8 a hard time. You have no intention of contributing to the discussion other than this. Since he was too informed for you, you are now trying to start on someone else and HE is too informed for you as well.
[QUOTE=unkokusai;888518]A little early in the day to be so drunk, isn’t it?[/QUOTE]
It’s said, that nothing more is exciting then watching the fisherman being pull into the water by the fish; well ‘kokusai’, meet the water… Your tantalizing thoughts and replies are meaningless and hold no true substance in debate…
While at the same time you seem to be posting as if you’re staring at some woman’s panty line through your living room window…
And saying, “it’s so sparkling it was almost mesmerizing, as it send little starbursts through my window, ricocheting hope within the realm of loneliness”… As you begin to cry, and say, “Is there a friend for the friendless”?
