He didn’t break his arm.There is a video that will prove this. (I will find it)When noone taps, points are used.Helio also gave up a bunch of weight.
When you’r telling one of your little stories, here’s a idea; Have a point, it makes it so much more interesting for the reader.
How do you enforce that though?
If you step into the ring and start throwing crosses, then that IS your fighting style. It doesn’t matter what it says on your card. If you’re ill-prepared to throw crosses but do it anyway, then it’s no one’s fault but your own.
1rstly i would like to say that i am not the one with diarhhea of the mouth , considering im not the one obsessed with fake fighting championships and go to a mcdojo bjj group .lets look at the facts here
kimura did break helios arm
the infamous son of the ufc status proved himself about as much as bruce lee did , he showed ignorant people something and they sucked his ballz for it. Gracie whatever his name is invited a load of wanabees to fight him and he ended up grappling with a karateka for 18 minutes, if that isnt a joke what is ? the karateka had 7 years under his belt gracie had been training since he was 5-6. WOOOOOOooooooooow
The realism of ufc and bjj can only be defined by people like shamrock saying " I left the ufc to go to wwf" because the WWF IS MORE REALISTIC…
please let me just laugh in your face, hmm wwf is more realistic than the ufc
on a side note i have no problem with helio gracie , the man must have been a great man , i even have the video of him fighting kimura , i d/l of a site and the footage is really really bad, but it looked like a judo match. More than anything else.
What i do have a problem with is peopl ebelieve bjj is the end all and be all of martial arts considering i dont thing i know of 1 bjjer who doesnt crosstrain because his art is incomplete.
Especially when the whole gracie scene is a setup, man those fights with sakuraba, i went and bought them , boy what a load of bull~crap.
So can we just drop this gracie business because its my knowledge of seeing 1000 martial arts versus people who believe 1 marttial art is the best which im not bothered with.
However this striking versus grappling business i still stand by the fact that it takes a great striker to ko an amateur wrestlerin under 2 minutes whereas an amateur wrestler can slap on an armbar in that time. IF the stiker doesnt expect it …
For this reason in nhb matches the grapplers will always have the advantage, expecially when you disable some of the strikers most potent weapons.
i dont care what you say its a fact, vale tudo judo and olympic wrestling matches dont go on for 9 rounds of 3 minutes each , boxing matches do
what do bin laden and general custer have in common???
They’re both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo
Holy shiat!
Fake fighting,Mc Dojo’s,single art supremecy.
My teacher is a open class brown belt pan american champ,texas extreme challenge champ and state qualifier after one year of collegiate wrestling.He was teamates with hands down some of the finest fighters in NHB right now.What have you done?Let me guess, your a forms champion from the 70’s.Maybe you can break boards and poke eyes.Maybe you can wave a sword around.Maybe you can spew fireballz out your arse.Maybe you can do absolutely nothing but badmouth real fighters.Maybe the mouth thing was excessive, my condolances.I don’t have a clue what you have done in the way of testing yourself and your art.If you wan’t to call NHB fake fighting, so be it.It’s a free country.I have fought in a cage, in a ring, on the mat and in the street.These are just my opinions.maybe you practice something better.
p.s.I wonder if Ken made that comment after Royce tapped him.
When you’r telling one of your little stories, here’s a idea; Have a point, it makes it so much more interesting for the reader.
wow i didnt think i would still be at this bjj vs kung fu thing after so many years , but just to settle it i dont have a problem with you or with bjj , im not saying kung fu is superior or that bjj sucks. In my eyes nhb is not real like on the street knife at your balls real , but its not karate point sparring fake either.
Its just things that vex me like kung fu doesnt work or how bjj is soo great, and this whole gracie thing ,in my eyes helio proved himself even if he lost to kimura, his sons have made a marketing empire and the first ufc’s were honestly so fake. However many instructors have proved themselves like by the sounds of it your instructor , However ive grown up in these circumstances and seen so much stuff from bottom of the barrel instructors, to people who really are some of the best out there, and im sick of hearing that nhb is a proving ground, maybe to your instructor but to me its different.
Ive heard so much sh1t out there thats why im sick of it.
Things that apply for kung fu guys as much as nhb guys , thing like when a friend of mine asked this kung fu grandmaster what would you do against the common shoot, his answer was i would punch him in the head, and he had already been took down in the daftest way from another kung fu guy and he still had the blindness to say , i would punch him straight. find out about the william cheung emin boztepe fight and youll se this william cheung bloke has the guiness world of records , record for 8.3 punches in one second. He said to me " i would punch him in the head if he tried to shoot at me"
But equally im sick of hearing how super duper nhb is when ppl havent ever seen a real traditionalist in action.
what do bin laden and general custer have in common???
They’re both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo
cool
I’m wondering why you think those fights were fake?I’m referring to ufc 1-5.I’ll admit, those fights weren’t a cesspool of talent but they were fights none the least.
When you’r telling one of your little stories, here’s a idea; Have a point, it makes it so much more interesting for the reader.
You guys are sooo funny
I find this very funny. This tournament isn’t kung fu only, because kf can’t compete with other MAs. It is to raise to kf level.
What do I mean when I say “They must use their style.”? I mean if you say you do Wing Chun, and you start throwing hooks and spinning back kicks to some guys head, that means your kf is crap.
What do I mean when I say kf expert? A person who is reconized as reaching a high level in their style. For example, Frank Yee can send a student and he would be ok.
This not like Vale todo, which is a good tournament. It is kf only, not grappling if your style doesn’t have it. This is only a beginning for kf
This tournament is to make kf stronger. And you guys are distroying it before it starts. I bet a lot of you guys won’t put your money where your mouth is.
I saw some people talking bad about Bjj. I think is funny BJJ has proved its effectiveness. Brazil is like HK, probably worse. They fight all of the time down there. We TALK all of the time up here. Is BJJ perfect? No, but it did change the way we think about fighting. After the first couple of UFCs, teachers started having and teaching SECRET ground techniques (BULL). Most of it is crap. I’m no BJJ fan, but I have to respect it’s effectiveness.
man its 3.00 am here i must be the saddest guy on earth, the reason i think that the first ufc for example is fake is that the contenders are a pick and mix of something out of bloodsport, and gracie knows full well who he can and cant beat, that fetal fighting guy , he was a joke , or the kickboxers in it they havent got a clue what a wrestler really is. Even worse is the karateka he has been so over glorified made to look like he is some hot shot from japan when he is just some blackbelt !!! And none of these fighters could really win because they dont have the ability or the training to k.o someone like gracie.
to me its just like the dim mak craze quite a few years back everone would rush into schools to learn killer kung fu , how to kill with one finger , its just oveer hyped marketing.
as a martial art i tihnk bjj is cool, i would have no problem learning it i would actually like to , and i respect it for keeping high standards whereas kung fu is really sold out.
In essence real kung fu is all but dead , in china it will be dead long before it is in america and its quite sad actually. My teacher is chinese and he thinks that by promoting modern kung fu that the government has created he is supporting his heritage , he doesnt know he is actually killing it.
The reason i like kung fu over bjj is because of its training methods and depth, i could take a bjjer and train him using traditional kung fu methods and make him into one of the best the world has seen. Whereas using normal methods grappling can only take you so far.
what do bin laden and general custer have in common???
They’re both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo
I agree with Richie’s last post.
This tournament is not to test Kf vs others, its to raise the level of Kf. Later there can be all styles in this, but first we should do 2 or 3 events that would be Kf only.
This could be a sort of wake up call that can make Kf schools all over the place start sparring in this way (tradicional with all the stances, moves, etc).
Once we have a solid base of our own martial art (kung fu) we will start working on it against other MA.
I’m too sexy for my shirt, too sexy for my shirt
I’m too sexy for your mother, too sexy for your mother
So sexy, YEAH
Yeah I agree with Richie. I’m just sick of seeing guys claiming to represent Kung Fu fighting like any generic kickboxer out there. It’d be so awesome if there were a tournament ocused on improving Kung Fu. Like fighters would get penalized if they start Thai boxing or something. I like the idea for learning, nt to prove this style is better than that style etc etc.
I don;t like the idea of only masters and stuff fighting though. I think all levels of stylist could benefit from something like that. Learning to use the techniques instead of simply learning how to do the techniques.
To say that Royce Gracie didn’t beat any skilled opponents is complete bullshit. In the first UFC, Gracie defeated Ken Shamrock with a rear naked choke. Shamrock was the number one ranked shootfighter in the world, and can benchpress 500 pounds. He then defeated Gerard Gaurdue (spelling?), a high lever European kickboxer. Lets not forget that he defeated Dan Severn.
Wongsifu, you don’t honestly think you could defeat Gracie in a street fight do you? I really hope you’re not that delusional.
wether i could defeat gracie in a street fight right now is not the question, as we have said a thousan times you never know, you dont know me etc etc , and if you look at any pro fighting he has already seen the previous fighter he has analysed him etc etc. The street is a weird place.
However like i said before what you consider a top european kickboxer , i may consider as an amateur…
take care
what do bin laden and general custer have in common???
They’re both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo
That is correct…we don’t know WONGSIFU…we only know what our EYEs tell us…and unfortunately we go back to step 1…TRADITIONAL CMA has not proven itself in any known standup fighting or NHB/MMA/VALE TUDO tournaments ever! And I think that’s SAD. There’s just too many excuses why it doesn’t. There are CMA guys here that say the fighters aren’t that good…but then ask why they don’t step up or one of their students step up…or one of their master step up…they say they are not that good or don’t have anything to prove YET say arts like MUY THAI and BJJ are not a high level martial art. Not Internal enuf etc…lol.
The problem is that with the UFC/MMA events is a forum to prove your style or way of fighting…whether u win or lose u can show off a particular tech…we know eye gouging works…has been used INTENTIONALLY but against the rules…LOL…we know high kicks work…people have been KO in these event…we know that elbow strike works…we know throws and takedown works…headbutt works. In terms of style…we know that the most effective are striking arts: kickboxing, boxing, muy thai…
in terms of grappling: folkstyle wrestling, bjj, sambo etc…
I mean if u’re gonna try to SELL a product or make a claim would u not want to prove it??? I don’t buy anything unless it has been seen and felt…
A
Wong,
A ring is not the street. Given.
Here is where those of us who believe sportive MMA is a good training concept have the problem:
“Kung Fu is NOT just a bunch of forms and stances. It has real fighting value!”
“Ok, here are the rules. Show us.”
“It’s not just a collection of vital point strikes and deadly techniques!”
“Ok, here are the rules. Show us.”
“The other guys that claimed to do Kung Fu weren’t really any good at Kung Fu!”
“Ok. Here are the rules. Show us.”
“The rules favor grapplers!”
“Ok.
-We’ve changed to a round system and instituted a
stand-up rule.
-The floor is padded to prevent injury upon slam
or throw.
-There seem to be an awful lot of strikers
knocking people out these days.
-If boxers and kickboxers can do it, why can’t
you? Show us.”
See, we’re not asking for a miracle. We’re asking that the claims are backed up. Give us proof, and we’ll believe it. Show us that people trained in Kung Fu can kick ass in this context and we will all seek this out and learn what we can. We are interested in the improvement of fighting skills, and if Kung Fu shows us that we’ll go that way too.
For the record, people seem confused about “the ring and the street.” None of the MMA types think the ring is the street. We think that success in the ring is a pretty good indicator of how well you can do in real life. Who here wants to screw with Tyson, Belfort or Sak in a real situation?
Those of us who believe sportive styles are the most efficient groundwork for self defense base that on the following ideas:
Live, active opponents create an environment of continuous improvement-you learn timing, you learn what it FEELS like to hit and be hit. You learn what works best for you under a variety of circumstances… all against an actively resisting opponent. I recognize that Kung Fu uses active full speed sparring in many places, but sports are PRIMARILY about this, and the emphasis is greater: I never escaped wrestling practice without live wrestling. I never leave BJJ without full-speed sparring, barring injury. I have, however, witnessed several “traditional” classes where they do not spar every class.
We believe that in a fight, gross motor movements are going to be the most effective. I am unlikely to have the presence of mind or body to perform something requiring me to hit a certain exact spot, or extremely subtle manipulation. I WILL however, be able to shoot, sprawl, throw, kick or punch to the body, legs, and head.
We believe that adapting sportive movements to combat is easily done. I don’t have to choke or submit you once I’ve taken you down. I can pound on your face. I can also gouge your eyes out, rip at your face/throat or throw knees to your head and groin, since I have controlled your body movement and you will have a hard time moving if I don’t want you to. Same goes for stand up work: A throw becomes a slam on the head, a kick to the leg becomes a kick to the knee.
We believe that all arts and sports have holes, and train to shore them up. Nothing is the perfect art, nothing offers it all.
We believe in “show us.” We don’t CARE where it came from, show us the value and we’ll use it!
Did I miss anything anyone?
Oh yeah,
One last thing: There’s a lot of “well, that would work against an untrained opponent, and since I am training to fight the average thug, that’s enough for me.”
The MMA community believes that is wrong. We want to know what works on people that are TRAINED. Show me what works on everybody, not just the uneducated.
Strikers in MMA
Here are a few notable strikers in the early days of MMA.
Orlando Weit - Muay Thai
1992 World Kickboxing Champion
1988 European Champ
1985 Dutch Champ
Gerard Gordeau - Savate, Kyokoshin Kai
90-92 World Boxe Francais HW Champ
8 Yeays Dutch National Karate Champ
Founding memeber of the original K1
James Warring - Boxing
IBF Cruiserweight Champ
Melton Bowen - Boxing
WBC Intercontinental Champ
2 X New York State Golden Gloves Champ
Pat Smith - Karate, Kickboxing, TKD
2 X World Sabaki Champion
KICK Super Heavyweight Champ
Jerome Turcan - Savate
#6 Ranked WKA Cruiserweight in the world
Moti Horenstein - Karate, Kickboxing
86-88 Israeli Kickboxing Champion
1996 OYAMA Sidokan Champion
Mo Smith
WKA Heavyweight kickboxing Champ
WKA MT Champ
No with the exception of Mo Smith who learned how to grapple, every one of these strikers had their butts handed to them in MMA. So I guess there goes your theory of no good strikers in MMA.
Nah dood…wong sifu says there’re amauteurs…lol!
A
Vasco de Gama, when did your instructor enter the Texas Extreme Challenge? You know they even have the luge in it now. The luge, in Texas. It’s just gotten weird.
JWT
If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV
As a fan of MMA, I would love to see representatives of Kung fu fight. Kung fu was my original interest in the martial arts. Several promoters could easily set this up, even just for a single match would be cool. This could be a trial run. Alot of promoters will book a request match as long as both fighters demonstrate that they have trained enough to protect themselves. The fighter could work it out with the ref and promoter if they want to limit the rules in some way (i.e. sport jujitsu style 30-sec. ground rules). I don’t know how to make sure people stick to their style, but if the fighters make the fight to demonstrate their style and they fight vale tudo style, i guess their style’s not so hot. I think people revert to vale tudo style because it gives good protection, lets you move easily in any direction and attack easily with all your weapons. I’d love to see something different. As a fan, I always look for a unique approach… that’s why sak has had such a huge following…
I’m glad to see not all kung fu guys hate bjj. I think it is similar to the internal styles of kung fu, because you use sensitivity and technique against your opponent’s power. The reason Gracie impressed me was that he was so much smaller than his opponents and still won. (from a marketing aspect, that’s probably why Rickson didn’t fight in the early UFC’s - - I can look at Royce and imagine that if I get good, I could have a chance against a much bigger, stronger opponent, but I’ll never be as big and strong as Rickson, Shamrock, or Coleman)
I wish I had seen this style when I was wrestling, because using strength against your opponent will only take you so far. After four years of wrestling, I was strong enough to beat most of my opponents, but if I wrestled a guy a couple of weight classes up, I had no chance.
I’d like to see someone demonstrate stand-up skills that make me have that same revelation I had watching Royce, that I don’t have to be Wanderlai Silva to take someone out standing, that skill and sensitivity can defeat strength, speed and power.
Finding a venue to fight is no problem. I hope this happens.
It must be a artificial luge.
He fought in that tournament two years ago.He was cornered by Tito Ortiz and Sal Garcia.John Lober was the ref.He fought some wrestler from Washington I believe.
When you’r telling one of your little stories, here’s a idea; Have a point, it makes it so much more interesting for the reader.