“Other styles have tourneys forcing them to use what they learn. Jujitsu guys have it, Judo guys have it, Kickboxers have it, Boxers have it. We don’t. We need it.”
agreed 100%
i don’t really understand what all they hype is about the ufc thing. so the main stream public doesn’t agree with what i do … there’s something new :rolleyes:
so you think kung fu is crap because there has yet to be any entries into your competitions . .. ask me if i give a flying fu ck. i know what i do works on the street because it has been tested there. our style has also been pitted against other schools when my sifu still taught publically. i am more than confident that i am developing into a better fighter with better street chances learning kf. i dont need you to validate this. if you think you can walk through us because we aren’t in any of your full contact sparring matches it’s all the better for the guy you underestimate and consiquently hands you your a$$.
i think you guys here are taking opinions a little too seriously. not to say that i haven’t been guilty of this myself, but after i really thought about it i was disapointed in myself for being emotionally effected by another’s opinon on what i do. i know what i do has meritt. i don’t need to hear it from some ufc junkie who hasn’t seen what i have. most of them are little nerds pointing the finger who would never enter the ring themselves. the others are sportsman who have yet to come across good kf. maybe they will one day .. maybe they wont .. it doesn’t effect my training one way or another.
i like technical debates about kf vs. grappeling and other styles, but there is no reason to get bent out of shape by the opinion of someone who doesn’t really matter to you anyway.
“However this striking versus grappling business i still stand by the fact that it takes a great striker to ko an amateur wrestlerin under 2 minutes whereas an amateur wrestler can slap on an armbar in that time.”
So your saying that these contests are unfair because grapplers are able to execute there techniques quicker and more efficently than a pure striker.
This statement somes up the entire debate Wong, Thank you. You just discovered the reason why so many of us train in grappling.
I would like to bet that if Jason DeLucia(sp?) had won, then alot of people saying, “He wasn’t using real Kung Fu” would be sying, “Jason DeLucia is a Kung Fu man, and he defeated Royce Gracie.”
Why isn’t a jab or cross Kung Fu? Are the mechanics of it so different? I have seen many variations of how kung fu guys throw punches, and lots of them throw punches like that. Some of them were traditional guys, some not, so should I just call them all “kickboxers”?
A friend of mine once had someone ask him what kung fu looks like, so he punched the guy in the face (playfully) without hesitation. That’s the definition I like to go by .
I thought the problem was that people are saying the mixed martial artists suck as fighters and that they (the not-so-humble talkers) are invincible and can take everyone out with one punch, but they refuse to fight. I don’t think anyone is saying someone doing their own thing should have to prove themselves (of course not, not everyone is a pro fighter), but I understand the frustration when one person is saying “you guys suck and can’t fight, and I’m great”, but they won’t fight and prove it.
There are Vale Tudo matches in mexico, I can probably put in touch with someone if you want to fight there. The rules are just what has been listed here. How you propose to penalize fighters if they dont “stick to their style” is beyond me.
I cant fathom, why anyone would want this proposed tournament. If you want to to test yourself , get into MMA. If you dont fine, but to have tournament where a fighter has to fight a certain way is an exercise in ridiculousness. Either have a lot rules (like judo competition or a kickboxing match ), have the rules you need to get sanctioned (UFC), or fight with almost no rules (Vale Tdo in mexico or Brazil)
“You guys have obviously never done any real fighting if you are mocking spitting”
Spinning Backfist
you know guys what sucks about this whole thing is that everything you speculate on is because you see one side of the story, in america mma is the end all and be all, in china mma is unheard of. They say the same crap about american fighters , that they are all a joke none of them has ever proved themselves, i read all the time about the american san shou guys going to china and getting their ass handed to them, ive heard too many stories from one guy or another about his teacher making boxers look funny by throwing them around the ring. Ive actually seen what it means to be a badass in china and in america, and america doesnt compare. I have never heard of any american ufc nhb champion going to china to fight , im sure that many guys who crosstrain in kickboxing and judo, could enter the san shou competitions with a little modification why dont we see that ?
you guys want kung fu to prove itself to you , so you go make the challenges where real kung fu is. Kung fu has worked for 1000 years it has gone beyond the stage of fighting in nhb tournaents , when china used to hold nhb tournaments, gracie was in helios nutsack.
The bottom line is you arent gonna get people who are going to win the nhb competitions in america, unless they are hardcore kung fu guys, and those who are dont really give a hoot about the competitions.
There isnt even a standard of competitions between kung fu for chrst sake, i mean kickboxing to golf has standardised competitions but kung fu doesnt.
But i have an idea because this thread is getting boring and we have been over this 100000000000 times i propse we either stop the discussion on put down the reasons why kung fu would do better than mma in the ring and you do otherwise..
what do bin laden and general custer have in common???
They’re both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo
DOOD…there is regularly SAN SHOU tournaments that have PURE BOXERs enter and kick ass! The most famous one I know of is the BATTLE OF BALTIMORE…where CUNG LE and JASON YEE squad competes regularly. The fact is using CHINA as a standard of great fighter is BULLSHIET…I haven’t seen a CHINESE TOURNEY on tape that has shown any indication of fighting in alongggggggggggg time. Maybe that’s cause of the government…but to say AMERICAN FIGHTER don’t compare LOL…pleaseeeeeeeeee…I’m asian and I’m not STUPID enuf to believe that BS!
knife fighter i totally agree with you, most of the kung fu guys in america and europe suck bad , the only ones who are ok, are guys who are chinese. I have met one person in all my life who is not oriental and has real kung fu. ITs a sad fact, but we dont have the mentality to embrace what they can wholeharteadly, we are either too soft or too hard, we dont have patience.
How many guys do you think would really say ok sifu , i will just practise horsse stance for 1 years before i learn punches for 1 more year and kicks for 1 more after that. after the 3 years are up of horse stance and basic punches and kicks i will then start training kung fu.
We are so used to the , practise wing chun the quickest system of self defence, no low horse stances. Kung fu is like a huge tree if it doesnt have solid roots in the beggining it falls over haf way through growing.
Im not just talking out of my anus here, i have been through all the stuff you guys hear about kung fu and believed it from heresay, i learnt after 2 years the move that was unblockble. I learnt the best style in the world, i learnt how to defeat opponents 10 times my size having never actually sparred full contact. Even though i could not really block them because its hard to block a 220 pound guys arm that is coming at you.
I learn all about how bashing inanimate objects for hours every day can make your hands hard as iron , even though the teacher who did it could not break one slab if it wasnt fixed.
Unfortunately
Then i realised that i was being fed lots of bull, so i started again at the beggining, and after 8 years or so , i am practising basics again that really work, that is why i stand by the real ability and marvel of kung fu. The sad fact is 90% of people in kung fu are better off doing a martial art that teaches them how to fight fast and effectively.Like bjj and muay thai.
what do bin laden and general custer have in common???
They’re both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo
Braden:
I would hardly call Tim Cartmell a traditionalist, seeing as he is heavily influenced by BJJ.
Wongsifu:
You were tricked for eight years? Now you are starting again, learning basics that you are convinced will work this time? How do you know what you are learning now is any better than what you learned the first eight years.0
[This message was edited by Knifefighter on 11-01-01 at 03:46 PM.]
ok maybe i didnt write it out well enough i was tricked for about 4 years , ok not exactly tricked i should say brainwashed, it was a case of look at karate’s slow hands, look at our fast hands , look at karate’s old boring blocks, look at our modern kung fu blocks , you know.
The other 4 years after that were used doing some aikido some ju jitsu some karate, some hung gar , some gym work, by some i mean anything from 1 day to 2 years. Then i found my chinese teacher and he showed me that stuff got ever deeper, in my search, then one day it all kind of clicked.
So i thought sod it take things real slowly and it doesnt matter you can defend yourself anyhow, so take your time starting from step one again.
Now the difference is i dont need to believe that if i do this this will happen its a case of i am doing tihs and this is happening.
what do bin laden and general custer have in common???
They’re both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo
KF - Why not? Traditionalists have always sought out other talented martial artists to learn from, and to fill in percieved gaps in their skills. The idea that tradition comprises blindly copying what old people did and wearing funny outfits is a modern invention fueled by capitalism.
Tim trains in BJJ because he recognizes a need to be proficient on the ground and did not believe that need was fulfilled by the other arts he was exposed to. It doesn’t make his kungfu any less traditional. And it doesn’t mean his kungfu training methods are any different from a comparable individual who did not train in BJJ.
You’re looking for good quality kungfu. Tim has it. His circle throw is not from BJJ, it’s from bagua. His power generation is not from BJJ, it’s from xingyi. If you define “traditional kungfu” as only kungfu practiced by closed-minded people wearing funny outfits and blindly copying what old people did, you shouldn’t be surprised if you never find any quality.
I consider myself a traditionalist, but I’ve always been taught to recongnize the value in other training methods. Whether I chose to seek them out or not was up to me, but recognizing skill brings you one step closer to understanding their style.
Jaguar Wong
[i]“If you learn to balance a tack hammer on your head
then you learn to head up a balanced attack!”
The insinuation in all of your posts is that the rabbit hole is very deep with Kung Fu and not so deep with BJJ/wrestling/Judo/boxing/Muay Thai etc.
I assure you that the rabbit hole is JUST as deep with these arts as they are with Kung Fu. The techniques are just as complicated and specific, and the training to reach a high level requires the same dedication. I will assure you that a 60 year old wrestler, boxer, or Judoka can be as equally skilled and formidable as a 60 year old Kung Fu master.
Knife, no i havent seen any.
As a matter of fact i havent seen a live vale tudo fight exept for TV.
There was a Nhb event some months ago but i was out of town
In this one a kickboxer had issued a challenge on the newspaper to any one from any martial art to fight with no rules weighting 70kg. A Muay Thai guy from another city acepted the challenge.
So there would be some Vale Tudo fights and some k-1 fights, but like i said i didnt go. I think a training brother watched it but i havent asked him since when i came back it had happened over a month ago. There were no kung fu guys on the tournament and BTW there is only one kf school here and its the one i go to.
I’m guessing there might be underground stuff but i’d have to check on that.
I’m too sexy for my shirt, too sexy for my shirt
I’m too sexy for your mother, too sexy for your mother
So sexy, YEAH
.