my visit with hendrik

[QUOTE=Scott R. Brown;1069117]too mysterious and complicated to understand .[/QUOTE]

Agree 100% there. The striking art is just a punch to the head or a kick to the groin. The throwing art is just to push the head down and kick the legs up. We truly don’t need to use any fancy terms but just to use plain English that everybody can understand.

Who care if you knock me down by your Min Jin, An Jin, or Hua Jin? As long as I’m down, that should be good enough for you.

When someone cuts my head off with his sword, whether he was using “internal” power or “external” power won’t matter to me at that particular moment.

[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1069106]Scott I agree! I do believe Hendrik have sommething of value to share, I just wish he would be more straight-forward and less dismissive. Just when i thought we were making some progress he defaulted back to bai si therefore shutting me down instead of discussing the details involved with his snake engine.[/QUOTE]

What to complain?

Whatever need to say, said. Whatever need to show shows in the Youtube. If you dont get it then you need to get help from a sifu. That is a reality.

Theo fly around the world to verify what his view is. I have to called Mainland China for my sifu’s help in internal art with QQ conference even after I train for years everyday . Sifu Robert Chu Baisi to the old age Pole expert sifu to learn pole. That is how art was learn. Others or me no different. Even if one is super smart and has very indepth kung fu, still, one always learn from some others who is better then one, when one dont get it. That is a reality.

For me,
Life is always fair, how much one get depend on how much one dedicate and pour one’s blood and sweat in. There is no short cut or Chinese slow way or Western fast way when it comes to Kung Fu cultivation.

Since you agree to Scot; then why dont you ask him to teach you in details all the Hua Jin stuffs here. and I would like to see how Scot can do it better then me. Go a head Scot.

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1069120]Agree 100% there. The striking art is just a punch to the head or a kick to the groin. The throwing art is just to push the head down and kick the legs up. We truly don’t need to use any fancy terms but just to use plain English that everybody can understand.

Who care if you knock me down by your Min Jin, An Jin, or Hua Jin? As long as I’m down, that should be good enough for you.

When someone cuts my head off with his sword, whether he was using “internal” power or “external” power won’t matter to me at that particular moment.[/QUOTE]

So this is the out burst from some one always presenting the idea of talk sweet to make other happy instead of talk straight?

IMHO, with this type of attitude you might as well go and buy a Neuclear Bomb and flip a switch to blow everything up. There is no point to practice an art.

Also, I am talking the art of WCK here not fighting. So, please not off track the subject.

[QUOTE=Scott R. Brown;1069117]There is a long Asian tradition of “demonstrating for a student” and then letting him figure it out for himself. This method is outdated. It is inefficient and frustrating for students in the modern world. It does not make a student a better fighter or a better instructor, neither does it bestow any special insight on the student. All it does is allow them to remain an incompetent fighter for a longer period of time and frustrates them when a simple instruction of 5 or so minutes can save them years of wandering aimlessly trying to figure something out on their own.

Fighting and fighting principles are simple and basic, NOT complicated and profound. Anyone who makes them complicated and profound is doing an injustice to those wishing to learn and demonstrating their own lack of depth of understanding.

So, on occasion, I feel motivated to comment on the subject. Hendrik just happens to be a glittering example of what NOT to do! That is not to say he doesn’t have sommething of value to share from time to time. He just tends to make it seem too mysterious and complicated to understand much of the time. Since I disagree with his method, I say so!

It’s nothing personal! Although I can see how it may appear personal since I tend to be direct and blunt with my comments towards him! I do this because he is generally stubborn and thinks he is a know-it-all, or at least comes across that way; people like that require a straight forward and blunt style.[/QUOTE]

Scott, IMO the teacher can only show the door to the student and and it’s up to the student to enter and develop the kung fu. and actually, things are quite simple to know, but mastering them is what takes effort and where the “deep end” is. one needs a sifu to show them the way, but after that it’s up to the student. it’s true simple instruction of 5 minutes or so can save years, and that’s the sifu’s job. the masters of the old days trained in this way as well, students trained and if the sifu notices something, he might point it out. there’s nothing mysterious or complicated here, just levels and levels of training so it all depends on what you’re looking for. also, hendrik was discussing the WCK technology and not about fighting.

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1069120]Agree 100% there. The striking art is just a punch to the head or a kick to the groin. The throwing art is just to push the head down and kick the legs up. We truly don’t need to use any fancy terms but just to use plain English that everybody can understand.

Who care if you knock me down by your Min Jin, An Jin, or Hua Jin? As long as I’m down, that should be good enough for you.

When someone cuts my head off with his sword, whether he was using “internal” power or “external” power won’t matter to me at that particular moment.[/QUOTE]

you might be oversimplifying here. it’s analogous to playing an instrument, there’s different techniques, etc one has to know to “master” it. can’t just say playing a guitar is plucking a string or a piano is just pressing a key

[QUOTE=theo;1069138]Scott, IMO the teacher can only show the door to the student and and it’s up to the student to enter and develop the kung fu. and actually, things are quite simple to know, but mastering them is what takes effort and where the “deep end” is. one needs a sifu to show them the way, but after that it’s up to the student. it’s true simple instruction of 5 minutes or so can save years, and that’s the sifu’s job. the masters of the old days trained in this way as well, students trained and if the sifu notices something, he might point it out. there’s nothing mysterious or complicated here, just levels and levels of training so it all depends on what you’re looking for. also, hendrik was discussing the WCK technology and not about fighting.[/QUOTE]

One of the biggest issue on the Internal TCMA technology is if one doesnt have a formal training following a sifu. There is no way s/he could learn thing via reading some books or watching some youtube.

Without a formal training back ground, even if one is shown with a youtube and keep telling one the key of it. one still passed it by and cannot recognized it, why? because the mind is keeping looking at some where else and keep expecting something else. that un experience mind just dont know where to look.

Lots of people thinking as soon as they could read some book and watch some youtube and think accordingly they will be able to know what it is.

Well, it cant be done that way. the motto is one thinks one knows but one really doesnt know.

Be it Internal Chinese art, be it ZEN, be it Meditation, unless one was coach into it and identify and verify it with a sifu.

what one understand from reading books or the result of thinking are just Thinking. it is not what it is. those type of thinking only produce good arguement and theories, it is not something alive at all. That is the reality which many dont like to face. One can keep argue but it goes no where but empty words.

For me, those people who resist Baisi is simply because of their big ego or not serious. It happen alots in the west and asia on such issue. They resist Baisi to have sifu to coach them thinking they dont need to ; and use all kind of reasons to argue ;but the bottom line is they dont know the subject; eventhough they think they know. They simply dont know the real deal — in an argument they could play with words , talk big, and smart arguments, but when the real issue is place infront of their face, they couldnt recognize the different between an apple and an orange.

I usually perscribe one to baisi when the real deal is place in front of their face but they cant recognize it. Their reaction is the evidence of they dont have enough back ground to learn yet.
Resisting the Baisi or not that is another indication of how big is their ego and how do they really love to learn the subject or how serious they are. Lots of people do anything and fly around world to just baisi and learn the art, instead of sit on the chair and type on the computer thinking one could learn it all. Those are hopeless.

people who is good at the art is willing to invest with big part of their life, that is not like the Base Ball card collector who collect card. Oh, I have YKS’s video on the set, oh I got Koo Lo’s dummy, oh I got Cho family long form… let’s trade, Those are just garbage collector.

Believe it or not those who knows the art only needs the six directional force vectors, the snake engine, the white crane reference, and the 3 basic type of momentum generator and they could make any lineage art alive at any instant with any type of shape. those are the soul and the soul has no shape.

Without learning the WCK technology what to fight with? Boxing? MMA? is that WCK? Nope. it becomes really ridiculus when one is discussing about WCK technology, all these fighting stuffs surface.

[QUOTE=theo;1069138]Scott, IMO the teacher can only show the door to the student and and it’s up to the student to enter and develop the kung fu. and actually, things are quite simple to know, but mastering them is what takes effort and where the “deep end” is. one needs a sifu to show them the way, but after that it’s up to the student. it’s true simple instruction of 5 minutes or so can save years, and that’s the sifu’s job. the masters of the old days trained in this way as well, students trained and if the sifu notices something, he might point it out. there’s nothing mysterious or complicated here, just levels and levels of training so it all depends on what you’re looking for. also, hendrik was discussing the WCK technology and not about fighting.[/QUOTE]

Hi theo,

I agree with most of your post,some I disagree with. WCK is a martial art first and foremost, the philosophy is merely an afterthought or attachment, so to speak.

It is a basic principle of all arts. The art develops through desire, need and practical application/use over time. THEN, practitioners go back and investigate WHY what they do works. Technical understanding FOLLOWS the development of an art. That means an art, not just a martial art, but any art, is found to be efficient and effective FIRST and then the reason why it works is investigated afterwards. This technical investigation may indeed improve ones understanding and ability with any specific art, however as with all things in life, it is also a double edged sword. When the study of any art becomes over technical, it kills the art. It is immaterial that I understand the physics of a somersault, when performing one. A scientist who studies the technical aspects of a somersault cannot necessarily perform a good one, much less an excellent one. The one who can perform an excellent one is the one who practices the somersault over and over again for year after year. THAT is why these practices are called ARTS. Knowing the technical aspects may indeed help one perform a better somersault, but an over preoccupation with the technical aspects will also hinder ones progress. This is because one must develop an “inner sense” about it. You basically, FEEL the correct way to do it. No amount of instruction or technical discourse or technical knowledge will teach you the feeling. You must develop it yourself over time.

WCK and all martial arts were developed for fighting. However, over time many have developed, refined, and created out of thin air concepts that have over complicate simple principles. This is not just a characteristic of WCK, it is very common for many arts, not just martial arts either, but other arts too. When something simple is over-complicated the heart and soul are squeezed out it.

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1069127]Since you agree to Scot; then why dont you ask him to teach you in details all the Hua Jin stuffs here. and I would like to see how Scot can do it better then me. Go a head Scot.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for your permission Hendrik, what would I do without your permission?:rolleyes:

I would first do two things. One is get rid of the Chinese terms and use English. This is America after all and there is no reason to use Chinese terms unless one wishes to perpetuate the idea of special/secret/mysterious knowledge. Secondly, I would stop using parlor tricks in order to demonstrate the generation of force, redirection of force, dissolving of force, etc. principles!

While standing with someone pushing on your chest may be good for beginning a conversation and impressing the naïve and impressionable, it does nothing to prepare one for a real world fight. After all the study of technical aspects of any art are of no value if they do not make you a better fighter. Parlor tricks will not help one apply the principles in a fight. In fact, if one does not practice in a dynamic and unpredictable environment, all their special parlor tricks will have no value or meaning, because you will be laid up in the hospital wondering what went wrong with your application of the fancy principles when you should have been punching and kicking your opponent from the start.

Anything can look mysterious and special under a controlled circumstance. Anything can look awe inspiring when you load the system with a prearranged pattern of behavior. When an instructor has you stand there and push on him here while he does this in return he is controlling the environment of the interaction and therefore the outcome. It is a set up from the get go. If it isnt demonstrated in a dynamic and unpredictable situation, it is meaningless in terms of real life self-defense. So, with theo, you should have started with your prearranged stance in order to demonstrate the principles, then allowed him to challenge you in sparring with no holds barred in order to establish your principles real world application. However, within a class students are loathe to embarrass their instructor by moving outside the prescribed, prearranged and allowed movements, so it is doubtful he would have truly challenged you in order to demonstrate the flaws in your principles. So, if an instructor can only demonstrate his principles within a controlled environment and cannot respond spontaneously to the unpredictable, what he is teaching is merely a parlor trick for the impressionable and naïve.

At first I considered going through this whole thread to correct your errors of communication, but it became clear that it would be very tedious and boring, not only for me to do, but for anyone wishing to read it. Also, a number of other posters have responded to you effectively while you have merely ignored their salient points in order to perpetuate your own delusion. So, instead I will do the same thing you have done when addressing many of the questions you have been asked, I will refer you to the 10 years or so of postings I have made on the subject on this BB. Go and find them yourself!

For those interested in learning your legendary skills that have no real world application, I would recommend avoiding it like the plague until after you have learned to effectively defend yourself in various environments against various types of opponents.

Suffice it to say, all one need do is to practice the basics repeatedly over time and the body will respond naturally on its own. Physical force is generated from the rear foot and moves up through the body like a wave. The power is increased by the twisting movement of the hips, and shoulders. DO NOT punch with the arms. The straightening of the arm is the least power generating movement of the body when punching.

For internal power, forget it! It is a myth; it is just a different application of physical power. Avoid becoming preoccupied with it. That is not to say the mind is not involved in ones ability to generate power. The easiest way to describe it is to let intellectualization go. Dont think about it and the body will respond naturally to your intent. This is after one has learned to apply the basics effectively however. One must start out thinking about the movements in order to establish a correct basis of each movement, but after the body has internalized/habituated the movements, empty the mind of preconceived ideas and thoughts and allow the body to respond naturally to the attacks. Hit real things like various kinds of bags under varying circumstances as well as hitting real people in real unpredictable sparring situations.

The rest will come on its own over time! And in the end you won’t be all that impressed with it all because there is no mystery or secret involved. it is simply the body learning to move in the most efficient manner through practice.:):wink:

If there are any questions, I will be happy to be more specific according to the question asked!:slight_smile:

[QUOTE=Scott R. Brown;1069146]
It is a basic principle of all arts. The art develops through desire, need and practical application/use over time. THEN, practitioners go back and investigate WHY what they do works. Technical understanding FOLLOWS the development of an art. That means an art, not just a martial art, but any art, is found to be efficient and effective FIRST and then the reason why it works is investigated afterwards. This technical investigation may indeed improve ones understanding and ability with any specific art, however as with all things in life, it is also a double edged sword. When the study of any art becomes over technical, it kills the art.
[/QUOTE]

Very good insight.

“Understanding” follows skill. And your level of “understanding” mirrors your skill level (the better skilled understand what they are DOING better than the lesser skilled).

It is immaterial that I understand the physics of a somersault, when performing one. A scientist who studies the technical aspects of a somersault cannot necessarily perform a good one, much less an excellent one. The one who can perform an excellent one is the one who practices the somersault over and over again for year after year. THAT is why these practices are called ARTS. Knowing the technical aspects may indeed help one perform a better somersault, but an over preoccupation with the technical aspects will also hinder ones progress. This is because one must develop an “inner sense” about it. You basically, FEEL the correct way to do it. No amount of instruction or technical discourse or technical knowledge will teach you the feeling. You must develop it yourself over time.

And how do you develop the ability to do a somersault? By practicing doing a somersault. Not by not practicing a somersault. From that you – as you correctly point out – develop a FEEL FOR DOING IT.

WCK and all martial arts were developed for fighting. However, over time many have developed, refined, and created out of thin air concepts that have over complicate simple principles. This is not just a characteristic of WCK, it is very common for many arts, not just martial arts either, but other arts too. When something simple is over-complicated the heart and soul are squeezed out it.

In the MAs, when you stop doing realistic training, you can’t help but go “off course”. It is realistic training (sparring/fighting) that keeps you on course.

Very good post.

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1069128]I am talking the art of WCK here not fighting. So, please not off track the subject.[/QUOTE]

The art of WCK is not fighting? :confused:

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1069127]ask him to teach you in details all the Hua Jin stuffs here. [/QUOTE]
I don’t believe you can teach anybody how to reach to the level of Hua Jin. When you are there, you are there. When you are not there, there is no use to talk about it.

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1069128] I am talking the art of WCK here not fighting. So, please not off track the subject.[/QUOTE]

when did the world turn upside down? I must have missed that…

1, Who cares about Permission? The term permission has never come in my mind until I read it here.

2, After all this long post and you still didnt tell us anything about Hua Jin.

[QUOTE=Scott R. Brown;1069148]Thank you for your permission Hendrik, what would I do without your permission?:rolleyes:

I would first do two things. One is get rid of the Chinese terms and use English. This is America after all and there is no reason to use Chinese terms unless one wishes to perpetuate the idea of special/secret/mysterious knowledge. Secondly, I would stop using parlor tricks in order to demonstrate the generation of force, redirection of force, dissolving of force, etc. principles!

While standing with someone pushing on your chest may be good for beginning a conversation and impressing the naïve and impressionable, it does nothing to prepare one for a “real world” fight. After all the study of technical aspects of any art are of no value if they do not make you a better fighter. Parlor tricks will not help one apply the principles in a fight. In fact, if one does not practice in a dynamic and unpredictable environment, all their special parlor tricks will have no value or meaning, because you will be laid up in the hospital wondering what went wrong with your application of the fancy principles when you should have been punching and kicking your opponent from the start.

Anything can look mysterious and special under a controlled circumstance. Anything can look awe inspiring when you load the system with a prearranged pattern of behavior. When an instructor has you stand there and push on him here while he does this in return he is controlling the environment of the interaction and therefore the outcome. It is a set up from the get go. If it isn’t demonstrated in a dynamic and unpredictable situation, it is meaningless in terms of “real life” self-defense. So, with theo, you should have started with your prearranged stance in order to demonstrate the principles, then allowed him to challenge you in sparring with no holds barred in order to establish your principles’ real world application. However, within a class students are loathe to embarrass their instructor by moving outside the prescribed, prearranged and allowed movements, so it is doubtful he would have truly challenged you in order to demonstrate the flaws in your principles. So, if an instructor can only demonstrate his principles within a controlled environment and cannot respond spontaneously to the unpredictable, what he is teaching is merely a parlor trick for the impressionable and naïve.

At first I considered going through this whole thread to correct your errors of communication, but it became clear that it would be very tedious and boring, not only for me to do, but for anyone wishing to read it. Also, a number of other posters have responded to you effectively while you have merely ignored their salient points in order to perpetuate your own delusion. So, instead I will do the same thing you have done when addressing many of the questions you have been asked, I will refer you to the 10 years or so of postings I have made on the subject on this BB. Go and find them yourself!

For those interested in learning your legendary skills that have no real world application, I would recommend avoiding it like the plague until after you have learned to effectively defend yourself in various environments against various types of opponents.

Suffice it to say, all one need do is to practice the basics repeatedly over time and the body will respond naturally on its own. Physical force is generated from the rear foot and moves up through the body like a wave. The power is increased by the twisting movement of the hips, and shoulders. DO NOT punch with the arms. The straightening of the arm is the least power generating movement of the body when punching.

For internal power, forget it! It is a myth; it is just a different application of physical power. Avoid becoming preoccupied with it. That is not to say the mind is not involved in ones ability to generate power. The easiest way to describe it is to let intellectualization go. Don’t think about it and the body will respond naturally to your intent. This is after one has learned to apply the basics effectively however. One must start out thinking about the movements in order to establish a correct basis of each movement, but after the body has internalized/habituated the movements, empty the mind of preconceived ideas and thoughts and allow the body to respond naturally to the attacks. Hit real things like various kinds of bags under varying circumstances as well as hitting real people in real unpredictable sparring situations.

The rest will come on its own over time! And in the end you won’t be all that impressed with it all because there is no mystery or secret involved. it is simply the body learning to move in the most efficient manner through practice.:):wink:

If there are any questions, I will be happy to be more specific according to the question asked!:)[/QUOTE]

I also told you to look for my posts over the past 10 years if you want to know what I have to say about it. Can’t you read? Or are you reading without comprehending?

I have written copiously upon the topic in the past. I have made my opinion very clear over the years what I think about these types of demonstrations and have described and explained what is occurring during them in detailed, simple terms. I have explained what is occurring during demonstrations like the one you performed with theo. I have described what occurs, how it occurs, why it occurs and and how to disrupt the process using simple movements. That is, neutralize and counter your little display.

While it is simple to explain and demonstrate how it works, it takes a little practice for one to learn to neutralize it without having someone help by pointing out what to do.

The reason you are unable to explain the process in simple and clear terms is because you are still a novice after all your years of training. You have yet to fully grasp the underlying principles. You may be able to do it, but you do not understand the physical process that occurs. This you made clear when KFF asked you simple questions you were not able to answer. You do not even understand the details of what you are doing well enough to explain them to another person. Your explanations are obtuse and general because you do not fully understand the process yourself. If you fully understood what you were doing you would be able to explain what is occurring in a simple manner.

I can train a relative beginner to overcome and completely neutralize your little charade in an afternoon! A more experienced practitioner can learn to do it in 5 minutes or less.

I am asking for GOD and you keep answering ABOUT GOD but NOT GOD.

Just tell the world you dont know GOD disregard of 100000 years you could have your opinions about GOD.

[QUOTE=Scott R. Brown;1069174]I also told you to look for my posts over the past 10 years if you want to know what I have to say about it. Can’t you read? Or are you reading without comprehending?

I have written copiously upon the topic in the past. I have made my opinion very clear over the years what I think about these types of demonstrations and have described and explained what is occurring during them in detailed, simple terms. I have explained what is occurring during demonstrations like the one you performed with theo. I have described what occurs, how it occurs, why it occurs and and how to disrupt the process using simple movements. That is, neutralize and counter your little display.

While it is simple to explain and demonstrate how it works, it takes a little practice for one to learn to neutralize it without having someone help by pointing out what to do.

The reason you are unable to explain the process in simple and clear terms is because you are still a novice after all your years of training. You have yet to fully grasp the underlying principles. You may be able to do it, but you do not understand the physical process that occurs. This you made clear when KFF asked you simple questions you were not able to answer. You do not even understand the details of what you are doing well enough to explain them to another person. Your explanations are obtuse and general because you do not fully understand the process yourself. If you fully understood what you were doing you would be able to explain what is occurring in a simple manner.

I can train a relative beginner to overcome and completely neutralize your little charade in an afternoon! A more experienced practitioner can learn to do it in 5 minutes or less.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=taai gihk yahn;1069164]when did the world turn upside down? I must have missed that…[/QUOTE]

How can you missed anything you have no idea ?
The world of Chinese always as it is for thousand of years, only it is not what you think you think.

Go a head translate it.


[QUOTE=Hendrik;1069181]How can you missed anything you have no idea ?
The world of Chinese always as it is for thousand of years, only it is not what you think you think.

Go a head translate it.

-----[/QUOTE]

back to being ur old passive-aggressive self I see; that’s reassuring :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1069179]I am asking for GOD and you keep answering ABOUT GOD but NOT GOD.

Just tell the world you dont know GOD disregard of 100000 years you could have your opinions about GOD.[/QUOTE]

looks like someone spiked the egg-nog a bit too much…

Whoa!!!:eek: Slow down there cowboy! Are you slipping back into psychosis now? Please take your meds before you decompensate more! Do we need to call 911 for you?

No one said anything here about God! That is your delusion.

I thought we were speaking about your little charade of a demonstration for theo, and how it may be easily neutralized by understanding some simple underlying principles of the scam you are perpetrating!

I do want to be perfectly clear here however, I am not accusing you of INTENTIONALLY perpetrating a hoax. So far, it appears to me that you simply do not fully understand what you are doing or why it works the way it does.

So try not to completely fall apart! I am always happy to help others, however you may need to empty your cup a bit first, to borrow a trite colloquialism. :slight_smile:

The art of WCK is not fighting? :confused:

WCK is an art.
Fighting is an act of human.

Again, I am talking the art of WCK.

I don’t believe you can teach anybody how to reach to the level of Hua Jin. When you are there, you are there. When you are not there, there is no use to talk about it.

You dont believe because your have never seen it. and dont know what it is.

There is no such thing as when you are there you are there. There is a process to make it happen. If one have the process to follow then it has to happen because this is a causal world.


When you are not there, there is no use to talk about it.
is true only for those who dont know anything about it and has no process to get there.

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1069181]How can you missed anything you have no idea ?
The world of Chinese always as it is for thousand of years, only it is not what you think you think.

Go a head translate it.

-----[/QUOTE]

Do we see a bit of racial superiority raising its ugly head here?