Link to part 2 of our chuji sanda clips. There is also a part 3 that was uploaded today (don’t have the link on me). You should be able to search it if interested.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ2z_QUvjN8
BT
Mr. Tunks
As usual good stuff. Your boys are definitely “likes to fight guys”! A couple of them do something I liked. In a sort of hopping retreat they lash out with a short hook upstairs, sweet. I like your guys aggressiveness.
Hi Brendan,
Thanks for sharing the exciting clips. At about 2:04 - 2:05 of part 2, I found myself screaming for a scissors leg takedown. Man, it’s good stuff. I think overall your guys have fast and powerful hands. Personally, I like the dark skin guy in gray pants who is in the first match and also the non gloved match in the middle. That part is beautiful. It’s a great thing to see a guy actually work his way to adapt to his opponents and at the same time finding his own “style” of fighting. The only thing (somewhat of a flaw) is that he’s pretty much ignore being in the headlock and getting hit in the head. I believe he’s taking advantage of the protective gear, which could lead him to think it’s okay to get shot at like that. In honorable fight situation that would be fine. But I believe it is prudent for him to work on gaining control of the opponent’s free arm before going for a pick up. For in the unfortunate event of a street fight, the presence of a weapon (ie knife) can drastically change the out of coming of a simple headlock situation. Of course it’s easier said than done and a bit hypothetical. But it’s my take on that. Hope you don’t mind my saying so. Great job by all that’s for sure.
Warmest regards
Robert
Hi Brendan,
Thanks for sharing the exciting clips. At about 2:04 - 2:05 of part 2, I found myself screaming for a scissors leg takedown. Man, it’s good stuff. I think overall your guys have fast and powerful hands. Personally, I like the dark skin guy in gray pants who is in the first match and also the non gloved match in the middle. That part is beautiful. It’s a great thing to see a guy actually work his way to adapt to his opponents and at the same time finding his own “style” of fighting. The only thing (somewhat of a flaw) is that he’s pretty much ignore being in the headlock and getting hit in the head. I believe he’s taking advantage of the protective gear, which could lead him to think it’s okay to get shot at like that. In honorable fight situation that would be fine. But I believe it is prudent for him to work on gaining control of the opponent’s free arm before going for a pick up. For in the unfortunate event of a street fight, the presence of a weapon (ie knife) can drastically change the out of coming of a simple headlock situation. Of course it’s easier said than done and a bit hypothetical. But it’s my take on that. Hope you don’t mind my saying so. Great job by all that’s for sure.
Warmest regards
Robert
[QUOTE=mantis108;876997]Hi Brendan,
Thanks for sharing the exciting clips. At about 2:04 - 2:05 of part 2, I found myself screaming for a scissors leg takedown. Man, it’s good stuff. I think overall your guys have fast and powerful hands. Personally, I like the dark skin guy in gray pants who is in the first match and also the non gloved match in the middle. That part is beautiful. It’s a great thing to see a guy actually work his way to adapt to his opponents and at the same time finding his own “style” of fighting. The only thing (somewhat of a flaw) is that he’s pretty much ignore being in the headlock and getting hit in the head. I believe he’s taking advantage of the protective gear, which could lead him to think it’s okay to get shot at like that. In honorable fight situation that would be fine. But I believe it is prudent for him to work on gaining control of the opponent’s free arm before going for a pick up. For in the unfortunate event of a street fight, the presence of a weapon (ie knife) can drastically change the out of coming of a simple headlock situation. Of course it’s easier said than done and a bit hypothetical. But it’s my take on that. Hope you don’t mind my saying so. Great job by all that’s for sure.
Warmest regards
Robert[/QUOTE]
Thanks Robert!
No, you are completely right. The headgear makes them ignore their defences badly (which is why we alternate between gear and no gear). There are a lot of big errors throughout, such as continually going for double leg takedowns with bad timing and leaving the head and neck vulnerable. Hopefully I can work them through this. Good thing about those masks though, they still get k.o’d and concussed from time to time so at least they feel some consequences.
Cheers.
BT
[QUOTE=yu shan;876978]Mr. Tunks
As usual good stuff. Your boys are definitely “likes to fight guys”! A couple of them do something I liked. In a sort of hopping retreat they lash out with a short hook upstairs, sweet. I like your guys aggressiveness.[/QUOTE]
Thanks Jim.
Yep, at least they like to get in there and don’t mind getting smashed. J, has a very sharp hook. Working on his straight striking now.
BT
ya, nice stuff. left a comment earlier on youtube.
Question: where, in traditional mantis, are you finding the double leg?
[QUOTE=Oso;877301]Question: where, in traditional mantis, are you finding the double leg?[/QUOTE]
O,
Off the top of the head, as there is more than one- one of the applications of mopan with double or linked piercing is double leg (at the lower frame).
Any evidence of it in your material? Maybe Kevin has a take on it, if he’s reading.
BT
well, so far, my mantis sets are just: xiao fanche, bengbu, xiao si shou, tanglang chuei (sp?) and the first road of Ba Kui (sp?) or ‘8 Fast’
our preliminary sets are: babu lian hua, shaolin shi ba shou and ‘Iron Fist’ as I have learned them
xiao fanche and xiao si shou share a move that is a great set up for shooting the double leg (or single leg): a big hook to the head that changes direction and cuts down to the mid or lower gates as you drop levels with the body.
shi ba shou’s ‘carry the basket maneuver’ can be modified to take the legs, imo but is originally an arm breaking throwing back over your uprooting leg…I train my folks to switch to the double/single if the original technique fails.
i’d have to think about the rest but those are places i have my folks train to look for the double as an option.
BT-
You wouldn’t have an example would you? I too am interested, but I do not see it in anything I know.
Thanks
Jake
[QUOTE=Three Harmonies;877346]BT-
You wouldn’t have an example would you? I too am interested, but I do not see it in anything I know.
Thanks
Jake[/QUOTE]
Jake- I’ll show you when i meet you.
BT
BT, you have anything on the form you are referring too? video, that is
Jim, what was that drill you showed me once? wasn’t is ‘mo pan shou’ or something? the first move could be an entry to a single/double
and, there is an application Jim showed me that he got from Shifu for the 5th mantis road that is a deng pu w/ an underhook on the near side arm that could be changed to a single/double.
i guess I feel like I don’t see any actual S/D takedowns but many entering movements that set you up for that option.
so, i’m eager to see some 
Matt,
No I don’t, sorry. It was a big enough stretch and shift in attitude to get me to post what I have so far (and mainly so I could avoid having to type about fighting). On a technical front, my student who did the clip is off to England this week for 3 years so I will have do any future stuff myself and i’m not particularly keen on posting clips of taolu or applications anyway.
As far as single leg takedowns there are many (though many are from inside to outside gate), majority beginning from knee smashes (in our versions of lanjie, zhaiyao yilu for example). To be fair though, I will expand on the first example I gave. Mo pan is to break or neutralise the guard, double piercing is consecutive (when seen in taolu or drills) but can be simultaneous in application, depending on the target. At the higher frame, double quan chui to the back of neck/base of skull (or jaw followed by back of neck), which can be brought forward/pulled in to knee in the face. At the middle frame the arms come to the small of back (either outside or inside on or both of the opponents arms) and the upper body lead by the head forces the opponent up and back, inner or outer leg hooking makes the throw worse, to land head and back first on the ground. At the lower frame, hooks come to the back of the knees, in and up. the shoulder and head ram forward, upward and outward. You can see this in the first fenduan of our duo gang (aka cuo/zuo gang), for example.
We have a minimum of 4 versions of almost every application and for many techniques, even more. The example I gave of variance at each frame (high, middle and low) is only one factor, left and right side is the other obvious consideration. Beyond taolu we also independantly drill many striking, kicking, na and throwing techniques (as does Robert’s school of Taichi/Taiji TLQ). Some of these you will be hard pressed to pinpoint in taolu. They are definitely still Tanglang, taught by masters of Tanglang who learnt from masters of Tanglang. Taolu is only one piece of the pie. However, both kinds of takedown are also present in the forms.
What you are referring to earlier in your fanche could be lan ma, also from your (and other) version of lanjie. It is not in our versions of either taolu but we have the same technique elsewhere and it certainly can be used for takedown.
No worries, if you guys don’t see this in your Tanglang. It may not be there. Afterall, we all learnt from different teachers. Eg. I doubt whether a cross shoulder (‘firemans lift’) throw ending in an arm bar over the lead knee is your application for the mi zhou attack at the start of Bai Yuan Chu Dong. Some schools are more wrestling oriented, just as others are more qinna or strike oriented. Eg. I have seen some schools of Tanglang that have no throwing whatsoever (apart from knock down or trips, and only two of them at that).
T
[QUOTE=B.Tunks;877381]Matt,
No I don’t, sorry. It was a big enough stretch and shift in attitude to get me to post what I have so far (and mainly so I could avoid having to type about fighting).
yea, it’s a biotch to try to type it all out…too many variables to ever have to great a convo via this medium
On a technical front, my student who did the clip is off to England this week for 3 years so I will have do any future stuff myself and i’m not particularly keen on posting clips of taolu or applications anyway.
gotcha
As far as single leg takedowns there are many (though many are from inside to outside gate), majority beginning from knee smashes (in our versions of lanjie, zhaiyao yilu for example). To be fair though, I will expand on the first example I gave. Mo pan is to break or neutralise the guard, double piercing is consecutive (when seen in taolu or drills) but can be simultaneous in application, depending on the target. At the higher frame, double quan chui to the back of neck/base of skull (or jaw followed by back of neck), which can be brought forward/pulled in to knee in the face. At the middle frame the arms come to the small of back (either outside or inside on or both of the opponents arms) and the upper body lead by the head forces the opponent up and back, inner or outer leg hooking makes the throw worse, to land head and back first on the ground. At the lower frame, hooks come to the back of the knees, in and up. the shoulder and head ram forward, upward and outward. You can see this in the first fenduan of our duo gang (aka cuo/zuo gang), for example.
ok, I see what you’re doing I think. i’d say it’s at least similar to the way I look at movement: how can such and such movement be applied to different parts of the body.
We have a minimum of 4 versions of almost every application and for many techniques, even more. The example I gave of variance at each frame (high, middle and low) is only one factor, left and right side is the other obvious consideration.
exaclty
Beyond taolu we also independantly drill many striking, kicking, na and throwing techniques (as does Robert’s school of Taichi/Taiji TLQ). Some of these you will be hard pressed to pinpoint in taolu. They are definitely still Tanglang, taught by masters of Tanglang who learnt from masters of Tanglang. Taolu is only one piece of the pie. However, both kinds of takedown are also present in the forms.
What you are referring to earlier in your fanche could be lan ma, also from your (and other) version of lanjie. It is not in our versions of either taolu but we have the same technique elsewhere and it certainly can be used for takedown.
and it may not really be in our version either…just my take on it.
No worries, if you guys don’t see this in your Tanglang. It may not be there. Afterall, we all learnt from different teachers. Eg. I doubt whether a cross shoulder (‘firemans lift’) throw ending in an arm bar over the lead knee is your application for the mi zhou attack at the start of Bai Yuan Chu Dong. Some schools are more wrestling oriented, just as others are more qinna or strike oriented. Eg. I have seen some schools of Tanglang that have no throwing whatsoever (apart from knock down or trips, and only two of them at that).
T[/QUOTE]
thanks, i appreciate it.
BT
You coming stateside anytime soon? I would love to visit Oz, but man it is expensive to get to your little island!
Thanks for the explanation. Not sure I see it. Hu laoshi certainly does variations of these throws, but he has a heavy Shuai Chiao background so…
I have never been taught it as a direct app from the Taolu I know, but then again I know very little.
Gives me something to work on, and analyze while practicing.
Thanks,
Jake
Hi Folks:
Like Axel from Guns ´n´Roses said: use your illusion! 
There is a double Leg takedown to find in a partnerset called Tou Hua san Dui Da and for sure some in Handsets also. Single leg throws/attacks are plenty to find.
Mike Sifu used to say once, that a lot of Tang Lang techniques are easy to perform as strong Shuai Jiao moves. Jake: just ask him in september, he surely can show some!
I know plenty, just do not see the single / double leg in the Mantis sets. Not saying they are not there, just that I am blind!
Jake
i think this gets into deciding what really is ‘application’ of a form movement.
my JJ teacher explained that they have ‘bunkai’ and ‘oyo’
one being the intended application of the form builder and the other being personal interpretation…i can’t remember which is which now though