[QUOTE=Oso;877442]i think this gets into deciding what really is ‘application’ of a form movement.
my JJ teacher explained that they have ‘bunkai’ and ‘oyo’
one being the intended application of the form builder and the other being personal interpretation…i can’t remember which is which now though[/QUOTE]
M,
Of course the element of personal interpretation is valid, especially once a person is experienced enough. Unfortunately this strategy sometimes results in people who don’t know, making up random stuff or importing to fill percieved gaps. However, in this case it’s not a personal interpretation. It’s a case of applying a designated, and drilled technique from within the arsenal of the style (even if that is only from one man’s perspective/interpretation of that style. Eg. my teacher). Having said that, in real fighting (not sparring, self defence/combat) people should use absolutely anything that works and fits the circumstances. That’s common sense. Learning to fight using Tanglang, it makes sense to try and restrict the parameters to encourage development of the skills of mantis boxing (at the higher level the restriction is less necessary). However, if someone goes outside those parameters and pulls off something outside what we might know of as TLQ, it can be a good thing for both fighters. This is the case with the suplex type throw you see in the clip. I would have picked that one out as something more obviously alien ahead of double legs.
[QUOTE=Oso;877442]i think this gets into deciding what really is ‘application’ of a form movement.
my JJ teacher explained that they have ‘bunkai’ and ‘oyo’
one being the intended application of the form builder and the other being personal interpretation…i can’t remember which is which now though[/QUOTE]
M,
Of course the element of personal interpretation is valid, especially once a person is experienced enough. Unfortunately this strategy sometimes results in people who don’t know, making up random stuff or importing to fill percieved gaps. However, in this case it’s not a personal interpretation. It’s a case of applying a designated, and drilled technique from within the arsenal of the style (even if that is only from one man’s perspective/interpretation of that style. Eg. my teacher). Having said that, in real fighting (not sparring, self defence/combat) people should use absolutely anything that works and fits the circumstances. That’s common sense. Learning to fight using Tanglang, it makes sense to try and restrict the parameters to encourage development of the skills of mantis boxing (at the higher level the restriction is less necessary). However, if someone goes outside those parameters and pulls off something outside what we might know of as TLQ, it can be a good thing for both fighters. This is the case with the suplex type throw you see in the clip. I would have picked that one out as something more obviously alien ahead of double legs.
Of course the element of personal interpretation is valid, especially once a person is experienced enough. Unfortunately this strategy sometimes results in people who don’t know, making up random stuff or importing to fill percieved gaps. However, in this case it’s not a personal interpretation.
didn’t think it was
It’s a case of applying a designated, and drilled technique from within the arsenal of the style (even if that is only from one man’s perspective/interpretation of that style. Eg. my teacher).
[B]
and that begs the question: when is a recognized teacher/lineage holder such as yourself or our Shifu Kevin, considered capable of interpretation that can be added to the corpus and still considered ‘mantis’?
my history knowledge is not great enough to cite example, but I think there are plenty of cases where teachers of mantis have integrated and interpreted and yet it’s still mantis to us down the line but maybe wasn’t still mantis to those back up the line ???[/B]
Having said that, in real fighting (not sparring, self defence/combat) people should use absolutely anything that works and fits the circumstances. That’s common sense. Learning to fight using Tanglang, it makes sense to try and restrict the parameters to encourage development of the skills of mantis boxing (at the higher level the restriction is less necessary).
agreed
However, if someone goes outside those parameters and pulls off something outside what we might know of as TLQ, it can be a good thing for both fighters. This is the case with the suplex type throw you see in the clip. I would have picked that one out as something more obviously alien ahead of double legs.
[B]actually, yea, i did but i don’t use supplexes…i have a patented bear hug type throw with it’s own little twist: i do a headstand on their face! ha!
[/B]
Cheers all.
T[/QUOTE]
but seriously, i picked the double leg as my question because of my own incorporation of it in our san shou practice
[QUOTE=B.Tunks;877381]
…these you will be hard pressed to pinpoint in taolu. They are definitely still Tanglang, taught by masters of Tanglang who learnt from masters of Tanglang. Taolu is only one piece of the pie. T[/QUOTE]
As it is for us in Taiwan. Shifu taught us different double and single leg that don’t seem apparent in forms.
Some examples that are in a form.
BENG BU
first folding elbow at end of form 1st road,
look at the monk half way down the article doing this elbow move.
usually this is a strike to opponent’s elbow or head, but the day I learned this form Shifu should me how to do it to the knee.
Later, we practiced this as part of our leg grab curriculum.
Within an old manuscript of 8 Elbows there is a section describing the defense of the double leg, which is sprawl and hit back of neck.
So the defense of the move is there, which is easy to show in a solo form.
But the motions of a double leg don’t lend themselves to a solo performance in a form and I think it fits with that body of material that is passed on without forms.
That being said, there are a lot of leg grab moves in long fist which have some overlap in Mantis.
usually this is a strike to opponent’s elbow or head, but the day I learned this form Shifu should me how to do it to the knee.
so, again, changing the application to fit level (hi, mid or low)
But the motions of a double leg don’t lend themselves to a solo performance in a form and I think it fits with that body of material that is passed on without forms.
in the gung li(k) that I learned there was a motion in the first or second move that I always thought matched the energy of the double leg as far as the arms went but the legs were not the same…
xiao deng pu = wrestlers ‘drop step’ which is used to penetrate the lower gate
‘continuous palm’ drill from babu lian hua is identical to handwork needed to get wrist control as wrestlers
‘strike high to attack low’ = wrestlers often attack for clinch or push on the head as a fake before dropping levels to attack the legs
shoot, if wrestling hadn’t been around since 800 BCE or more i’d say mantis stole everything from western wrestling
In most all cultures across the globe their was some form of grappling, that most likely preceded the arts we see today! Funny how some things change, and some don’t! BJJ and submission wrestling is gaining in popularity all over again.
Jake
Jake- I don’t know but I am definitely coming. I have family there again soon.
KB- Interesting and good to hear. We also have an unexpected/non conventional throw in our Beng Bu just after ‘Obtaining Treasure Behind the Back’: Carpenter Hangs a Thread. This is basically equivalent to the ‘neck rubbing’ throw found in most schools of shuaijiao, which is also a defence against the double leg or basic ‘crash tackle’.
In my opinion, many of the schools in Shandong today you can find a heavy shuaijiao influence. Tanglang has certainly borrowed/stolen heavily from it throughout the years.
[QUOTE=Three Harmonies;877596]In most all cultures across the globe their was some form of grappling, that most likely preceded the arts we see today! Funny how some things change, and some don’t! BJJ and submission wrestling is gaining in popularity all over again.
Jake[/QUOTE]
Matt-
I know broski, just trying to edumacate the young pups out there! You look like you have lost weight!?
BT -
Keep us all posted as to your visit. If you teach and Mantis I am sure there would be one or two people interested;)
Where in the US do you have peeps? Not Seattle by chance is it?
As I continue to develop in the CMA it seems to me that most, if not all, teachers who were adept at fighting had some level of exposure to Shuai Chiao in their lives. Though my teacher Tim would be an exception. Never took any shuai chiao formally, and has some of the best throws I have ever come across. But then again many of his teachers had SC experience to some degree.
Man that’s some good stuff!!! Tunks, I like how all your students are getting in there and mixing it up… I wish we had school like this in San Diego Cali.. take care.
I trained with mike for about three years.. We never did this kinda of training at his school.. I liked the training, I just needed more realistic training..
Really? Hmmm. Both Mike and Tony claim they spar consistently, and do various sparring drills!? At the MQ conference in 05 Tony Puyot shared several sparring based drills as well. I admit I have not trained with them at their schools, so I really have no clue, but you say something quite contrary to my understanding of their training methodology and practice.
Both post here so I am sure one or the other will chime in.
Cheers
Jake
I cannot speak for Mr. Dasargo and how he runs his classes. I do know that to introduce students to that level of sparring before they have technique would be a waist of time for everyone.
Also, most students do not want that level of contact and when you teach for a living you have to go with what most students want or can handle or as a teacher you can be broke.
Lastly, we live in southern California, the most litigious place on earth with some of the most fragile sensitive people you will encounter.
On the other hand, I do not teach for a living and do not care about most of these problems. My class consists of 90 % sparring, 10% two-person drill. Once or twice a year we might work on a form. We are always open to have people drop in and throw down.
Tony Puyot
What is your Name?
Well when I was there we never did any kind of training, like Tunks has his students doing.. Tony only taught one class when I was there.. Also we did do drills but, that doesn’t come close to what Tunks students are doing.. But I haven’t been to Mike in about 3 years.. I like praying mantis alot and I would like to pick up my training where I left off.. Like I said when I was there before it wasn’t realistic enough for me.. Take care..
Hi Tony, This is Nate Steele. I meet you a few times at Mike’s old school on Park Boulevard.. I always wanted to learn from you but, I think at that time you where not teaching.. Are you teaching now?. Take care..
I may be wrong, but I am assuming you are referring to high speed and heavy contact sparring.
High intensity/heavy contact sparring was not conducive towards helping you control your anger; which was the main focus of your development.
When we finally did go high intensity, your jaw injury put you out of training, and your brother quit out of disapproval.
Our primary focus is to develop skill that can be maintained under stress.
Intensity levels are governed by the students competence.
If the integrity of the students skill and/or composure buckles under stress, then the intensity level is no longer conducive to that students development.
Skill sets are isolated by establishing parameters. This allows our students to examine their competence within specific areas of combat.
Phase 1: Basic Striking. No kicks or grappling.
Phase 2: Basic Hands and Feet: No grappling.
phase 3: Basic Free Fighting.
…and so on.
There are always 3 sides to the story; 2 perspectives + 1 truth.
I know I may be misudnerstanding your perspective. I hold myself accountable for any miscommuncation on my part.
I hope to understand your perspective better so that we may improve areas where we have flaws.
Hi mike hows it goin? I did have some angry issues when I first strated training with you. Also I do appreciate everything you help me with but, as far as my brother quiting cause of my jaw injury I never heard that from him. I have actually had 2 mma fights and have done some muay thai smokers my jaw never brothered me then. Mike I did not come on this board to start pointing the finger are say you are a bad teacher. If you are taking it that way I’m sorry.. That was my perspective of how the school was when I was training there. Like I said I’m I would like to pick my training up where I left off. What Tunks does with his students I think school should do almost weekly.. But I’m no “sifu” so, what do I know.. Take care Mike.. Also saw that you have your own school now, congratulations!
