could someone please help me by explaining what are the following…
filing punch
driling punch
stop hit
sealing hand
closing hand
hiking stance
monkey stance
middle stance
and a road
also how important is stance work when your applying a technique in actual combat as opposed to the way it’s
performed when your practicing a form i.e. bung bo and hammer fist
i thank all of you in advance for your comments
sincerely,Daniel
I can not help you with your terminology but I can tell you that if your stances are part of your technique then to achieve max effect you have to be mindful of your foot work. Stances may not be as low as in your forms but the concept remains the same.
That’s my take on it.
RibHit
fm
Re: some help with mantis terminology
Originally posted by puma
.. also how important is stance work when your applying a technique in actual combat as opposed to the way it’s
performed when your practicing a form i.e. bung bo and hammer fist…
i thank all of you in advance for your comments
sincerely,Daniel
Great question. IMHO the stance work is typically inseparable from the technique. Some techniques are defined by their stance. Whatever the technique we are always in a stance, however loosely it may be applied.
regards,
UM>
Not to ound like a broken record, but the best place to get this info is from your instructor rather than to try to have someone explain it over the net.
Having someone show you is worth a thousand posts…
I wish I had my sifu available 24/7,
but I don’t so the next best resource is this forum IMHO. I do understand the shortcomings of a forum versus a live instructor, but at work I do not have that resource, yet I have questions that I will probably forget when I am conditioning and learning applications or forms tonight at class.
That said we have been practicing a lot of apps since I started and I am just now learning Baag Yune Tou Toe and it’s application. I know I don’t have the experience of some of the other members here, but I can deffinately see the value of the monkey stance in the begining of the form as I am learning it. That particular stance allows for a great deal of mobility while using a low hand strike. As for the other stances I can see advantages to being comfortable enough to use them in a real life application, I just don’t know quite how to use them just yet. I do have some ideas though.
If I am speaking above myself just let me know.
The terminology questions are great though. I can’t wait to get the answers either here or tonight when I ask my sifu. If I get the answer tonight I will let you know.
PAMantis
About Terminology…
I believe that Sifu Steve Cottrell is working on a book for that. Meanwhile, here are some thoughts:
filing punch: It is basically similar to a boxing uppercut except that this is more straight armed then the boxing counterpart. The intented target is also different. It is to train the accuracy in hitting Ren Zhong point (right under the nose) which is also one of the “8 strike” (Ba Da) area of Mantis.
driling punch: No sure about this one in 7 Stars term, sorry.
stop hit: No sure about this one in 7Stars term neither.
sealing hand: Feng Shou is basically binding opponent’s hand(s) either using one or both of your hands. In a sense, Wing Chun’s trapping falls under this category as well. Feng Shou sometimes has the effect of pulling the opponent towards you therefore unbalancing him.
closing hand: Bi Shou, I believe is also known as Der Gang (avoiding hardness) in HK 7 Stars. It is somewhat opposite of Feng Shou in that it pushes the opponent’s hands into himself. It could also have the same effect as Feng Shou in unbalancing the opponent. The direction would be different though.
hiking stance: Basically, it is forward or Bow & Arrow stance.
monkey stance: Not sure about this one in 7 Stars neither.
middle stance: It is classicfied as a stance in 7 Stars but is more like a transitional stage between stance IMHO. Weight 50/50 or 60/40 with weight on the back leg with the body erect (no leaning).
road: usually refers to a line of movements. Each turn equals one road in most cases. However as the title of a form Road would mean Routine rather.
“also how important is stance work when your applying a technique in actual combat as opposed to the way it’s
performed when your practicing a form i.e. bung bo and hammer fist”
Stance work (re: Balance) shows as you are in combat situation. If you have poor stance work, you will not be able to launch an counter offensive once you are in standing up grappling range and got tied up. A lot of the mantis footwork are designed to either destroy or “chew up” the stance of the opponent in that range.
Hope this help
Mantis108
Monkey Stance
I’m sorry that I missed that one. I do know how to do it, and I will try to explain it. The toes are turned in at roughly 45 degs. the forward knee is bent almost to 90 deg. and directly over the foot. The rear knee is almost touching the forward knee 9to block a groin kick is just one reason). This stance offers a great range of motion. I have no idea what this stance is called in any other style. I believe one could call it a modified forward stance in the sense that the feet are in almost the same position, just turned differently, and the rest of the body is positioned differently. Sort of like a Dragon or Twisting stance is a modified Horse stance.
I hope I have made sense and not soupted a bunch of nonsense. I am trying to think “out loud” so to speak. If my understanging is incorrect please correct me. It is hard in my class to find the time to converse like this. My wife and I usually have to leave as soon as class is over because she needs to be at work at 5:15 AM and our classes go from 7:30-9:30.
PAMantis, and eager student (eager=obsessive)
Re: I wish I had my sifu available 24/7,
Originally posted by PAMantis
As for the other stances I can see advantages to being comfortable enough to use them in a real life application, I just don’t know quite how to use them just yet. I do have some ideas though.
Good questions and I really appreciate mantis108’s detailed description of the techniques!
Don’t be in too much of a hurry to use the stances and methods in combat. As much as we pride ourselves at our school on being application oriented, it is also true that the quality of your Gongfu will suffer unless you spend a lot of time just doing the techniques for correct coordination, form and balanced execution. Also, many of the more advanced techniques of Tanglang are effective only because of the quality of Gongfu possessed by the practitioner.
Anyway hope it helps,
Steve Cottrell
Your insight is always welcome. I will of course train much more before I attempt to use any of the techniques. I just like to visualize the possibilities. Will that be a hinderance? Or is that an okay method to attempt to understand the technique, and theory of the application?
You are quite right to keep a martial intent in your practice and understanding the use of a technique is essential to correct practice. I just know some of the pitfalls that beginners can slip into. In fact there is a saying among Gongfu practitioners that, when translated, says that if you practice techniques and do not take the time to develop Gong, when you are old it will all be for nothing.
Best of luck in your training,
Steve Cottrell
Hi Sifu Cottrell,
It is always a pleasure to share. I wish I am a bit more knowledgeable about the 7 Stars material to offer more substantial help to others. I believe PAManstis has a very good point that since we all lead a busy life these days, we can use all the help we can get in any format including internet Kung Fu forums. I think KFO Mantis forum is unique in that it has knowledgeable Mantis stylists from solid lineages participating. I believe we are in the position to change the public perception that no genuine help is available through public forums. My very own experience through this forum would indicate otherwise. I met many great mantis brother and friends and benefit exponentially from the help that they have offered. We can really turn this forum into a real aid to those in the quest for excellence in Mantis.
Warm regards
Robert
I would have to agree that there is a lot to learn here. I have many question that I sometimes forget to ask my Sifu, or I don’t get the time with a busy schedule. There are certain questions I feel more comfortable asking my Sifu first, especially if it’s something that is better shown then explained. But in general conversation I would have to say that I get a lot of information from the forum that you don’t get from books or magazines. One of the keys that makes the forum a good resource is because it’s interactive. The fact is you can ask a mantis specific question and get many responses, some good, some bad. From what I have seen here @ KFO PM forum is you will find people like Mantis 108, Sifu Cottrell, Hua Lin Laoshi and Tainan Mantis willing to share good information. There are many others who also have good information or can tell you where to find it. I hope that one day I can provide more information based on research not based so much on personal opinion or perspective. As my understanding grows so does my ability to share the knowledge.
PS to sound like a broken record, I will say that your stances and how you move define your technique as a whole that makes up the intent of what your doing. Otherwise you’re just punching.
RibHit
fm
off topic
Its a bit off topic, but I forgot to congratulate Mantis 108 on his excellent article on the Taiji Tanglang Dummy in the last issue of Mantis Quarterly. I will have to ask to learn it from you if I’m ever in your area! It was certainly a worthwile addition to the Mantis family.
b.t
MQ Wooden Dummy Article
Shifu Tunks,
I too was very happy and impressed with the article. Establishing the origin and fundamental theory behind this training tool was exciting for me as I did not know much about it and had always wondered. It was great that Mantis108 made this available to Mantis Quarterly.
Elsewhere I told Mantis108 that the article made clear the genius of Master Jiu Jook Kite. I have decades of experience in Wing Chun as an instructor and a fair understanding of Tanglang but there is no way I would have attempted the task.
I look forward to perhaps having another technical article on the Jong. Perhaps one with a small section of it depicted in photos that some of us could try. (shameless hint).
Steve Cottrell
To Mantis 108..PAMantis..and all…thank you very much for your help:)
unfortunately..i am unable to learn from an instructor because there are no praying mantis kung fu kwoons within the metro detroit area and i rely heavily on research
Originally i wanted to learn wing chun or jkd to honor my martial hero Bruce Lee..I was also interestd in hung gar and tkd..but after
reading a few articles on praying mantis kung fu in the july 1998
issue of kung fu qigong…something just clicked inside of me and i’ve been on a quest to learn mantis kung fu every since.
Sometimes i get frustrated because there is only so much i can learn on my own…i’m at a total lost on footwork…but i figure before i throw in the towel..i’ll learn as much as i can on my own
untill i can meet an qualified instructor..if not then it’s back to square one…but i’m not ready to give up on praying mantis
kung fu just yet
I guess the reason why i’m runnning my mouth so much hereis because you get a lot of fakers and shakers and imposters on the
net and i’m just trying to keep it real
I’m only an enthusist..a novice at best but thus far people like Mantis 108 Tainan mantis and others who have put some very insightful posts within this forum have really been a big help to me
thanks;)
Sincerely,Daniel Russaw
Come On Down!!
Puma,
If you ever wish to drop down to Texas and visit, we would be happy to assist in your training. We have several practitioners from different lines of Tanglang who make visits to us and train with my students. We video these visits so that they can take the material home to practice and share until we can get together again.
Get with me off list if you should decide to do so. I could probablly help with that Wing Chun stuff too.
Steve Cottrell
Thank you, my brothers and friends
First off thank you all for the support and the kind words. I really appreciate them. BTW, it would be great to hear the feedback of my article. So for those of you who have already read it please feel free to share your thoughts.
Hi Brendan,
Thank you very much for the support. I am glad that you enjoy the article. It would be great to be able to meet up and do some training and exchanging. I am all for sharing. It would truely be wonderful to fulfill GM Chiu’s wish to bring this beneficial training methodology to the greater Praying Mantis community and perhaps even the Kung Fu community in general.
Hi Sifu Cottrell,
I have to personally thank you for giving me the oppotunity to share the wisdom of GM Chiu. I believe the Mantis Quarterly is one of the most exciting things that is happening to our community. The fact that this on going project brings together many Mantis stylists from different corners of the world sharing their knowledge and insights is worth a huge celebration already. Your organizational and networking skills are truely amazing. BTW, I hear you on a follow up article which hopefully will have pictures this time. Thank you for the invite. It means a lot.
Hi Puma,
You are most welcome. Best wishes and good luck to your study.
Warm regards
Robert (Mantis108)
Bi Shou
Bi Shou is also the name for the downwards sweeping double palms that accompany Xia Bu (which is the retreating cross step)after the Bi Men Jiao or Yaun Yang Jiao (which ever kick you are doing), in Zhaiyao Yi Lu and most other Tanglang forms. Of course this movement looks quite different between the mainland and H.K versions.
Mantis 108 is also correct with the other description of Bi Shou.
b.t
Hi Brendan,
Is there a difference between bi men jiao and yuan yang jiao?
In the forms that are common between meihua and 7* PM it is called bimen jiao in 7*, but in meihua it is usually called yuanyang jiao, or tortoise flipper or some other name like that.
So I thought bimen was just the 7* terminology.
But then I have seen some do yuan yang jiao like the double jump kick, er chi jiao also.
What do you think?
puma,
like you I wanted PM even though I couldn’t find a shrfu.
I learned my PM from a book when I was 15 while I studied TKD.
Later I had the chance to study with a student of the man who made the book.
MC Chan and Art D.
Art encouraged me to go to Asia and continue my studies in 1989 and have been here since.
Terminology
Hi all,
(jiao fa) Good question! BT is the man to ask on this one! but this is what I’ve experienced.
Yuanyang jiao (mandarin ducks kick) is definetitely an old name in mainland TLQ (found in Qixing, meihua, taiji etc). Its unique and is performed singularly or double (two kicks) like you said you have seen Kevin.
‘Some people’ say Bimen jiao and Yuanyang jiao are the same kick, they are certainly close in nature (attacking the groin, stomach - or specifically the area of ren12 (zhongwan), Kid19 (yindu)). Whilst some differenciate the kicks (as can be seen in some shandong tanglang quanpu) - which contain both Bimen jiao/yuanyang jiao. Dam, I think I starting to confuse things! Anyway, I’ve only come across the name in mainland TLQ, outside I’ve always had it referred to as Bimen. I think in ‘some practitioners’ there is also a difference in the way the sole of the foot points on extension? Anyway, that’s off the top of my head so don’t take it as 100%.