Mantis Teachers: What throws are in your curriculum?

Ok, how about a different question?

Please list the throws you teach in your mantis curriculum that you consider to be traditional mantis techniques.

I don’t have many since I’ve just been doing mantis for about 21 months.

1 - Deng Ta - from either ‘inside’ the doors or from outside the lead arm - basically sweeping/reaping one direction with the leg and chopping accross the upper body/head the opposite direction with the arm

2 - Deng pu/bu(?) - I only know this one way ending with a throw or an arm bar depending on how much I torque it on the way down.

3 - Waist Chopping - I know it by way of the forms (Bung Bu from Pong Lai and White Ape Steals the Peach from Jake) but have yet to pull it off against a resisting opponent.

That’s it for me.

Anything else I teach is from a wrestling/jujitsu/judo perspective.

Good luck!

I have brought this up before, many times. I feel that the throwing/grappling is the mantis weak point.

I have been told “mantis does not have a weak point”. Then when a question like this is asked no one can give a list of throws/holddowns or how they drill them.

If a person wants to go by the mantis theary of knocking your opponent out before they grab you or get you to the ground, good luck. :slight_smile:

well, my intent was to get teachers to talk about what they do teach in the way of throws.

What is the name of the throw?

What form is the movement found in, if any?

What is the basic principle behind how it is applied?

Instead of trying to get a ‘list’ from the Shanghai school I thought we might offer up what we do teach and work from there.

Oso
Wow. Good question. I do not know single throw names per se. And it is hard for me to say what is “Mantis” and what is not since my teacher is also a Shuai Chiao expert. I wish I could help more.
First I am not sure it is important to see the techniques in our forms. A recent visit to Martello Laoshi (and with other previous high level masters) has confirmed my thoughts that eventually one becomes formless! After a bit the energy and technique of given movements are much more in depth and important than the actual forms. Now I have not reasched that level, so I am still enthralled with sets and, as you, look for movments in forms.
If I may venture into Xing Yi thinking for a moment…
The basic Wu Xing (Five Elements if you will) that constitute Xing Yi’s core training are single movements practicesd over and over again. Now many take these movements to be too literal (Pi chuan is ALWAYS a chop right?). When in fact these movements represent a certain, specific energy. For instance Pi Chuan is indicative of any type of splitting energy, or any type of technique coming from above and down in a splitting motion (think axe). I can do this with my hand, fist, elbow, or even head.
So my point is… look at how the energy is played in the form, and use that as your guide to apps from Mantis forms. It will truly change your perspective.

Mantid 1… I would agree with you. Many claim that Mantis is a “complete” system, but as time moves on I see that fewer and fewer people have a grasp on throwing in Mantis (not only mantis. If I here one more idiot tell me that Xing YI is no good for throwing… :mad: ). That is not to say it is not there, but few people really know what they are talking about with it. I hope this changes in the future. IMHO throwing is one of the best ways to end a fight. We focus on it more than anything at my school.

Just my…well more the 2 cents worth.
Jake :slight_smile:

Actually why am I wasting all of your time…classify throws by how they are applied…circle, arc, spiral. This is much easier and convenient, especially when talking with other stylists!
I cannot suggest a better book on throwing, actually on anything MA related, than my teacher Tim Cartmells book “effortless combat throws.” Worth three times it’s weight in gold! Read this and then come back. I think it can only help your questions guys, and he is much better at articulating it than I am!

Jake :smiley:

I think this thread would be a good place to start by sharing what we are doing with throws in our schools by trying to describe and illustrate them to each other.

Throws and Takedowns in CCK TCPM

Well, there are too many to actually list them all virtually all of our Shou Fa can be finished with throws or takedown althought mostly I would do them in the context of takedown definition by Oso.

Some notable ones not only found in CCK TCPM but also in greater Meihwa lines are:

Tanglang Puchan (Full trap and takedown)
Xian Ren Zhua Fa (clinch and takedown)
Fan Tian Fu Di (Trap & throw or takedown)
Tanglang Gouzi Bu (Trap & throw or takedown)
Xiao Chiao Lian Deng Ta (takedown and throw)
Furen Jian Deng Ta (kick and sweep)
Xie Feng Pan Zhou (strike or throw or takedown)
Chan Long Meng Yan Da (trap & throw or takedown)
Shuang Jiao Shuang Bang (throw or knock down)
Mo Pan Shou (throw or takedown)
Beng Dian Bian Yuhuan (throw or takedown)
Gwa Lan Die Fa (throw or takedown)
Tie Niu Geng Di (throw or takedown - shoot in and double leg)
Bai Yuan Xian Guo (throw or takedown)
Jin Long Xian Zhua (throw or takedown)

There are many more but just a few for sampling.

Mantis108

sweet !!! great list.

any way to get english translations??? you know how bad my chinese is. :cool:

We have to be honest to our style. PM has only “trip” and no “throw”. Besides “forward kick”, and “waist chop”, There are no PM throws that end with “single leg standing”.

This is why a lot of LF guys cross train PM for speed and clear application, and then corss train SC for throw. Trying to lean throws from PM is just like trying to learn kicks from Win Chun, locks from TKD, or punches from Judo.

There is no perfect style just like there is no perfect woman (beautiful, rich, good in cooking, good in bed, and also love you to death).

so, anything else claimed by a mantis guy would probably be SC techniques added at one point or another?

Since Sangdong (PM original) and Hopei (SC original) are next to each other. Many people cross train in the north part of China which is a good thing.

sounds reasonable.

Why do you think the tactic of tripping hard enough to cause the head to impact the ground in a manner hard enough to render unconsiousness or death became such a staple of mantis strategy that other throwing techniques were eschewed?

The translated list

Hi Oso,

Glad you enjoy the list. Sorry about that Chinese only. I was a bit short on time when I posted that. Here is the one with the English:

Tanglang Puchan (Full trap and takedown)
Mantis seize cicada - GM Chiu often shared this on the old MA magazines.

Xian Ren Zhua Fa (clinch and takedown)
Immortal pulls hair - I shared a version of this in the MQ already

Fan Tian Fu Di (Trap & throw or takedown)
Flipping the heaven overturning the earth

Tanglang Gouzi Bu (Trap & throw or takedown)
Manits Hooking Step

Xiao Chiao Lian Deng Ta (takedown and throw)
Small sweeping connecting mounting collapsing

Furen Jiao Deng Ta (kick and sweep)
Axe bladed kick mounting collapsing

Xie Feng Pan Zhou (strike or throw or takedown)
Diagonal divided coiling elbow

Chan Long Meng Yan Da (trap & throw or takedown)
Dragon wrapping eye covering strike

Shuang Jiao Shuang Bang (throw or knock down)
Double calling Double helping

Mo Pan Shou (throw or takedown)
Millstone hand

Beng Dian Bian Yuhuan (throw or takedown)
Crashing dotting transforming to Jade Ring

Gwa Lan Die Fa (throw or takedown)
Basket carrying throwing method

Tie Niu Geng Di (throw or takedown - shoot in and double leg)
Iron ox ploughs the field

Bai Yuan Xian Guo (throw or takedown)
White ape presents fruit

Jin Long Xian Zhua (throw or takedown)
Golden dragon presents claw - I have also share this video clip with the MQ forum.

Hope this helps.

Warm regards

Mantis108

Single leg hop of 3rd beng bu is a throw on one leg:
My left rear ankle hooks his right calf or ankle and pulls his leg towrds me.
As this happens the hand motions are going on to keep him off balance.

This throw works well when he has started to move back or lean back.

This single leg hop is not in HK 7* verson, but I have seen it in other versions besides the one I practice.

In the 2nd rd of Mantis Hands also has this throw, there the hop is more apparent.
This type of hop also appears in Bazhou. The moves where jumping on a single leg 2 times.

I see this as a popular throw in Judo with a slight differance of hands, since no punches in jodo randori.
The off balance principle is the same.

Throw and trip is a moot point. The chinese word Shuai covers both.

There is also the PM superman throw. That is my name since it looks like a man trying to imitate superman.
Stand on one leg with body perpendicular to floor. 2 Arms punch out and one leg shoots behind, The entire body is perpendicular to the floor, and so looks like you are trying to imatate superman fling.
It is a throw with one leg off the floor.

This type of leg method is also popular in judo.
I learned it in Zhong hu yen, but I see it Wei Xiaotang do it in his 8 Step Zhai yao also.

Oso, the throws you mentioned are the important ones, the variations come out of the hand techniques as well as the reversals.

But there are also the WWF style throws such as uprooting by the torso and things like the firmans carry.
Called dao ko dai-empty his pocket, becuase when you lift hm up he is upside down and his pocket contents fall on the floor.

Also, an application for the mantis siezes cicada posture where you hold him upside down and smash his head on the floor. You would be good at those kinds with your superior body mass.

There is also the application of following hands leads the goat. The 1st move of beng bu second rd is the posture I am talking about, the hands are slightly different.
I showed this to my aikido partner and he said wow! Mantis has Aikido moves! (He teaches in Seattle now).

The principle is pulling the opponent in a direction he can not possible have stability.

Eg if he stand in a horse stance and you are directly in fron of him and pull him forward he will fall unless he readjusts his feet.
The clever aspect of this move is how you start at the side gate and jump to the front gate so you can pull him before he knows where to readjust his feet.

One day Shifu played a game.
He taught the move to my sparring buddy while I wasn’t around(cuz I was picking on him). Then, when we played I got thrown in a way I couldn’t comprehend.
Haha teacher’s idea of a good time.

You would be good at those kinds with your superior body mass.

You callin’ me FAT???!!!???

:smiley:

way late and I’m tired…good posts and I’ll reread them in the AM.

thanks.

KBrazier

I was wondering when u would chime in and save us mantis practitioners

i have seen a throw in mantis like the judo hara goshi(im sure not correct spelling).
I see many throws in mantis( at least i concider them throws).

Robert, thanks so much. Printed for long term study ! Visuals to come eventually???

Any links or sources to see Master Chui’s articles?

Single leg hop of 3rd beng bu is a throw on one leg:
My left rear ankle hooks his right calf or ankle and pulls his leg towrds me.
As this happens the hand motions are going on to keep him off balance.

3rd move, 1st road? Right leg hanging, Rt hand grasping and Lt hand striking?

sweet move!

I see this as a popular throw in Judo with a slight differance of hands, since no punches in jodo randori.

possibly this one

http://judoinfo.com/images/nauta/kosotogake.htm

or

http://judoinfo.com/images/nauta/kouchigake.htm

The off balance principle is the same.

I’ve been saying for a while now that if we paid more attention to the similarities than the differences we’d learn more of our own art.

Throw and trip is a moot point. The chinese word Shuai covers both.

good point.

just to be clear: when I talk about the reason for deciding to stay standing or go to ground (and my classification of all things throwy as ‘throw’ or ‘takedown’) with opponent A it is because opponent B may be a factor.

Next question:

Japanese arts describe application of kata as ‘bunkai’ (sp?)
Recently I’ve been told that ‘bunkai’ is ANY interpretation of a kata’s movement and that there is still the ORIGINAL application as intended by the forms creator. I have forgotten the word he used but that’s irrelevant to my question. This teacher went on to talk about how the loss of the original intent and subsequent reinvention/interpretation of intent has led to much bickering and arguing in his world.

I found that a somewhat funny parallel to our world. :slight_smile:

So, my question to the more learned brethren here is about the original intent of the forms and how do we know that a movement was a throw or just a striking application.

It would seem that the only way to KNOW is if there is written documentation, verifiable as belonging to LGY (for example only!).

I think uncovering the history and mystery of mantis throwing and groundfighting will involve determining the age of an application of a movement.

Did the Great Fan do this move or did LGY do it?

Here a throw there a throw…

Throwing is one of the four types of applications found in every attacking and protecting sequence. Remember showed you that throw in bung bo kuen .
Just look for the body separating movements.


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How To Make A Stew

yep, I think I remember now.

how’s things in DC?

Oso,
The beng bu throw is in 3rd rd, not 1st.
Where you hop on one leg just before the belly punch.

Like Kosoto gake from your link.
That is extremely helpful to post those as they are so clear.