so… anybody want to take a stab at clearing up a point made in the 7* overview article?
what are the classical 36 throws of mantis?
it would be interesting to see this list. if anyone can buck up with the names and/ or descriptions i think it could start a great discussion.
personally, i hate putting things in neat and tidy boxes like that. i think people get too caught up with this over-compartmentalization of tradition ie. “there are 12 of THIS, and 36 of THESE, 8 of THIS, but only 3 of THAT”. know what i’m saying? especially when we all do things a little differently for our own reasons.
anyway, i don’t see, from the myriad of mantis styles and substyles coupled with the vast array of technique interpretation that this can somehow be contained into such a specific number…however, if there is a definitive classical approach to what exactly exists as throwing principles/techniques i’d still like to see it and talk about it.
Quick question, is trapping the leg with your leg and pushing the opponent down concidered a throw, or a trip? Example hooking the leg 7* stance and waist cutting, is this a trip or throw? Are they the same thing, or does a throw have to be…well a throw where you physically throw someone with a grabbing tactic. Traditionally speaking what is the difference?
Personally, the traditional cataloguing of techniques into a set number of categories is done for the benefit of continuity and consistency of the system. That are important lessons involved other than just explaining a basketful of functional techniques. This would seem formulaic and esoteric enough that would turn most people off from go futher into studying the system; However, in the long run, it will pay off for those who have patience. IMHO, it is an important mental exercise second to non to the physical exercises within the system. But then that’s just my own opinion.
I believe in terms of mantis takedowns involve mostly leg techiques such as kicking, tripping, trapping, etc. The Waist Chop in Bengbu is an example of that. BTW shooting for a single leg would be a takedown instead of a throw in my mind. Throws mostly involve the whole body and can be divided into knockdowns (hard ie the elbow sequence at the end of the Bengbu second road) and uprooting (soft ie hip toss which by the way is rarely done in mantis).
I am not familar with the so-called 36 throws in Seven Star, so I will not comment on that.
Many throws in both Xing Yi and Tanglang are categorized under Kao Die, or literally ‘knock downs.’ These include most of the more sophisticated “trips” such as cut waist, or some of the moves Robert is speaking of in Bung Bu.
I would argue that the hip throw is not used much in Mantis. Tehcnically I cannot think of a Mantis set that I know where there is a hip throw in it!!?? Couple of moves in Taiji and Xing Yi, but I cannot think of any literal movement that is a hip throw. But I certainly use it a lot. It is an integral part of out training.
I think this is where a lot of teachers fall short, in that they have such a prejudice “mixing” styles, in this case putting a “Judo” Hip throw into their Mantis practice. This seems to be the mentality anyways. This is one of the reasons I advocate “cross training” so much. It can only help you in most cases.
Over the recent months I have been totally shocked at how little of time is spent with many systems / families of Mantis on throwing and applicable locking techniques! So few people do it, and even fewer understand these aspects of combat. Throws are the easiest application for anyone of any size as long as they can bridge the gap effectively. So I do not understand why very few teachers show many throws and takedowns. Chin Na is much, much more difficult so I can understand that one. Throws are safer for all involved to execute (you have a much higher chance of breaking your hand punching someone that throwing!). They give you the defender more control in that you can choose to drop the person nicely, or totally toss them into the ground causing severe damage. Remember: “Gravity never lies, and the ground never misses.”
Any Qi Xing folk out there that can comment on the 36 throws more?
The only possible “hip throw” I can think of is in HK 7* Chop Chui. Towards the end of the 3rd road where you swing left and right round-house punches, the “hip throw” being executed when swinging the right arm into the opponents chest.
Of course, this is one of my own interpretations of this technique. A couple of times when I was sparring, I would use this technique. The movement was familiar to me, but I didn’t remember where I got it from. Then one evening when I was doing Chop Chui, it hit me.
I think the 36 throws are made up of the different trips and takedowns in Praying Mantis, that with slight modification, can turn an effective trip into an effective throw.
I also think that these techniques are hidden within the forms, or at least, from the “unaided eye”.
This is only my opinion. A list producing the names of all the tripping and takedown techniques would be nice.
Takedown = you follow opponent to ground whether to follow up w/ striking (hand, feet or knee) or with chin na/choking/breaking techniques.[/I]
This distinction is important to me because there are times when you DON’T want to follow the opponent to the ground. So, when teaching, I define a technique as one or the other for tactics sake.
Deng Ta (sp?) to me is pretty much the same as O Soto Gari.
the arms are of course not gripping the gi in mantis but generally striking.
Deng Bu/Pu (sp?) could certainly be a hip throw couldn’t it?
I don’t particularly see anything wrong with categorizing things in lists. Especially if you are teaching in a commercial setting. The problem is when you think your list is the shiznit over everbody elses list.
This looks like the movement I was talking about in Chop Chui, towards the end of the 3rd road. Still, like you said, it would be more of a strike than a grab.
Praying Mantis or not, this is a good throwing technique.
I don’t know Chop Choi but we do a similar application at the end of 3rd road of Bung Bu.
I personally have hooked/grabbed the near arm and am hitting accross the collarbone/neck/head depending on how nasty I’m feeling…if I’m real tight in them then I use an elbow into one of those areas.
What I was wondering on the other thread was if they were listing 36 principals or techniques.
Entering the clinch, setting up the throw and the exact tools used to execute a throw will vary by ‘style’. But, all throws, irregardless of style, will share the same principles because you are trying to throw another human. The principles are the ‘why did he fall down’.
Nice definitions but I think we will have to take into account in the context of Mantis. Personally, I can agree on your def. because there is a direct functional use when it comes to ground fighting with mantis.
Hi Jake,
I hear you and I understand your point. I think we are more or less subject to the focus of the style/ teacher. There is no harm in cross training if the basic is strong IMHO.
My understanding of your def. is like the following example:
We do a deng ta and we let it reap. The opponent got their both feet of the ground and crushed his head. You are standing on your feet just looking at him no need to follow up, right? That would be a clear throw by your def. #1
We do a deng ta and for some reasons opponent has good roots and you managed to get him down by subtle changes in your technique. Now you have him down on his side and you close in sticking your knees on his neck and rib also trapping his elbow on your thigh (let say his right elbow on your left thigh) for control. Here at this point you have plenty of options including ground and pound or submission via positional play. This would be your def. #2
Ideally, in Mantis all Shuai techniques would strive for def. 1 like a knock out strike. Even techniques such as the waist chop would strive for that ideal. In a sense, def. 2 becomes a back up plan of sort IMHO. The good thing about this is that it’s very direct and clear (and I am all for it) but the downside would be that it blurs the defining line between Shuai techniques that might cause confusion as to when is appropriate to execute a particular move (ie should I or can I go to the ground with the Deng Ta?) That split hesitation might just cause the efficiency of the move when we are at it. That’s not really good news for novice. But then I have to say an experience MA guy would properly have not problem whatsoever with that. So, it could be just me being …
Again there’s nothing wrong with your definitions. In fact I quite like it myself. Personally I general use dengta in the context of def. #2. It could be a big no no for other Mantis lines which would think that it’s a half ass throw. But to each their own. So…
All throws require grabbing. The only exception is when you opponent uses Bagua circle walking and cross his leg and you can sweep his forward leg without any hand contact.
I believe the difference between trip and throw is that trip only block the leg but throw kick the leg off the ground and end with “single leg balance”. So for waist cutting, if you use 7* stance then it’s a “trip” but if you use “forward kicking” like the last move before the ending in the Ran Ja form then it’s a “throw”.
This guideline can only be applied on “non-body contact - face to face throws”. For the “body contact - back to face throws” such as “waist lifting - hip throw” or “bowing - shoulder throw” that you still end with both legs on the ground.
IMO, a throw is anything where he ends up on the ground and you are still standing.
Sweeps, trips, etc. can be throws or takedowns by my definitions.
The exact scenario/situation dictates the tactics you decide to follow.
I won’t repeat what I said above about the difference between chosing to just throw and to throw and follow (takedown).
I place everything as a subset of ‘throws’ and ‘takedowns’
Also, just to run my mouth some mo, I think ‘trips’ should be stated as ‘sweeps’ because you might not be sweeping their leg. It could be there hand/arm if they are prone and it doesn’t have to be your leg that is sweeping…
All throws require grabbing. The only exception is when you opponent uses Bagua circle walking and cross his leg and you can sweep his forward leg without any hand contact.
I’m a little confused by what you are saying here.
Not all throws require grabbing.
Most throws probably require some sort of hand contact but it doesn’t have to be a ‘grip’.
Just to clarify I know what I think is a throw, I was asking in general to see what the “traditional” meaning of a throw is. Since it is stated that there are 36 whatevers from a “real traditional” school, then maybe they could give us a clear answer as to what is what… but as usual we won’t get an answer.
I agree that a throw is anything that puts your opponent on the ground through some sort of throwing, tripping, pushing, tossing, sweeping, pressing, etc or any combo of those together to get the guy/girl/child/dog on the ground.
It all depends on what the purpose of your throwing. The fight still continue after your thrown unless his skull got cracked open from that. You may be able to throw your opponent by two points contact such as push his head down and kick his leg off. Without the “leading arm control”, there will be too many ways that your opponent could counter you and that could make your throwing fail. Even after you have thrown or taken him down wothout controlling his “leading arm” and put him on the ground, Both of his free arms can still fight back as we have seen in most of the UFC fight. If you have that “grip - leading arm control” then you have a head start for your ground fight because you already got an arm bar on him and you can apply it whenever you want to. This is the main difference between TCMA throws and BJJ or MMA take downs.
Only heard about 50 words SC poem but have never heard of 36 PM throws and I don’t believe it exists.
