In the others forums we have been discussing throwing techniques found in forms. I believe that Mantis forms blatantly teach a few major throws. Nothing needs to be “read into” the forms to find throwing techniques.
I thought it might be interesting to list some of the Mantis forms that clearly show any type of throwing technique. I will start the list with four throws.
Qixing Tanglangquan form White Ape Exits the Cave : Double Seal Hand, Seizing Leg.
Qixing Tanglangquan form Praying Mantis Exits the Cave: Penetrating Palm, Right Stride Step
Taiji Tanglangquan form Lower Dividing Body Eight Elbows. Here is a pic of me demonstrating the movement on my son: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=442876884480&set=t.750549480&type=1&theater
Taiji Meihua Tanglangquan form Luanjie: Sky Dividing Elbow. Here is a pic of me demonstrating the movement on my son: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150289401014481&set=a.439598454480.197292.750549480&type=1&theater
[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1124109]Qixing Tanglangquan form White Ape Exits the Cave : Double Seal Hand, Seizing Leg. [/QUOTE]
In Shuai Chiao you would call this throw:
Leading Arm Kick Throw
Let me go and dig up the Chinese names… mybe John Wang could chime in, he has more of the Chinese names and Characters.
ginosifu
I found this pick:
Watch at about :23
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM_4iVXaugo&feature=player_embedded#at=27
from my understanding any leg lift is (Tiao) the hand technique would be the prefix, ie (Bungtiao)
My thought on the throw in the Qixing Tanglangquan form White Ape Exits the Cave : Double Seal Hand, Seizing Leg is described below.
-
My opponent and I both stand with our left legs forward.
-
I throw a left crushing strike ( beng chui/bung cheui) to my opponent’s face.
-
The opponent does not let me trap his left hand and is able to raise his left hand to block my left crushing strike.
-
I turn my left crushing strike into a left grab and pull his left arm downward.
-
I follow with a right rear hand strike toward my opponent’s face.
-
My opponent blocks my right hand with his right rising block.
-
My right rear hand transforms from a striking hand to a grabbing hand and grasps the opponent’s right blocking arm at the wrist, jerking his arm forward.
-
My left hand swings forward and strikes the rear of the opponent’s elbow joint and takes hold, then I pull the opponent’s weight onto his left front leg.
-
Finally, my right rear leg swings forward to sweep the opponent’s weight-bearing left leg. Of course, this could also simply be directed immediately below the knee joint to break or injure the knee.
Thus, the technique is a simple lead strike, reverse strike, double grab and leg sweep combo.
Wouldn’t these be considering take downs or felling techniques more than throws?
Don’t get me wrong, I love the integrated take downs inherent in Mantis.
Cheers!
~josh
8 step ba bu tang lang has shuai jiao in it so from our stand point they would be considered thows not take downs.
[QUOTE=iunojupiter;1124845]Wouldn’t these be considering take downs or felling techniques more than throws?
Don’t get me wrong, I love the integrated take downs inherent in Mantis.
Cheers!
~josh[/QUOTE]
Josh,
How would you differentiate the two? Perhaps we need to define our terms. 
take downs usually dont involve and type of lifting your oppenents feet off the ground or by the way the head is forced to move.
In shuai jiao the techniqes are often grouped by what motion your opponents head moves when thrown. ie arching, corkscrewing, rotating.
These motions are usally not considered in a takedown. hope that explians one facet of the difference
I guess my personal distinction between a throw and a takedown is this:
A throw involves the persons feet coming level or above their head, and some sort of horizontal movement of the person being thrown (i.e. they don’t land where they were standing).
A takedown would be a sweep, trip, unbalance… where the feet do not come above the head and the person drops generally where they were standing. No/Minimal horizontal movement of the person being taken down.
Consider Ginosifu’s picture: I would consider that a takedown, even though the subject’s feet are going above his head, simply because I see that as an aggressive/excessive standing sweep, with no horizontal travel of the subject. He is dropping (harshly) where he stands.
That’s just my feelings on throw/takedown. Like most things, I think this is a perception thing. Everyone is right.
Cheers,
Josh
Josh,
A throw involves the persons feet coming level or above their head, and some sort of horizontal movement of the person being thrown (i.e. they don’t land where they were standing).
Please undertand there are several throws in which your opponents feet do no come level or go above the head, but still are considered throws.
Kuai Jiao
[I]"First, compared to traditional Chinese wrestling, Jujitsu and Judo, San Shou Kuai Jiao emphasizes more speed when throwing. In contrast, traditional wrestling, Jujitsu and Judo emphasize obtaining good grappling position on an opponent’s body or uniform first, and then applying the throw. In this way, it takes more time to throw down an opponent.
Second, San Shou Kuai Jiao incorporates kicking and punching techniques. San Shou Kuai Jiao always combines hand and leg techniques. However, traditional wrestling, Jujitsu and Judo, especially the sport varieties, do not emphasize these techniques.
Third, unlike Greco-Roman and free-style wrestling, Jujitsu, and Judo, San Shou Kuai Jiao generally avoids falling to the ground and grappling too long with an opponent. One simple reason is that it is dangerous to tangle with opponent on ground in a real fight, especially if you face multiple opponents."[/I]
Read more: http://www.shouyuliang.com/2006-september-october/the-art-of-san-shou-kuai-jiao.shtml#ixzz1VIRsvQZW
Mantis “throwing” is Kuai Jiao.
There is only one Chinese word for throw/takedown and that’s (Shuai). IMO, when you apply a
- throw, your try to make your opponent’s head to hit the ground first.
- takedown, you just want to let your opponent to be off balance.
In Chinese word, there is only one word for throw/takedown and that’s (Shuai). IMO, the
- throw is to use your leg (or body pulling) to take your opponent’s feet off the ground such as sweep, cut, hook, twist, sickle, spring, hip throw, bowing throw, …
- takedown is to use your leg to trap/block your opponent’s leg and only to use your hands to push your opponent down.
In other words, the person who performs a
- throw will end with “one leg standing” (except hipt throw, bowing throw, …).
- takedown will end with “both feet on the ground”.
We can also say that a
- throw is your opponent’s feet comes off the ground and then fall.
- takedwon is your opponent’s feet may still be on the ground when he falls (pull guard is a good example).
The easiest example will be the Taiji Peng, Lu, Ji, An. Since there are only hands moves without legs moves, I’ll call those as takedown.
Lot’s of interesting ideas here. I like what ED mentioned about categorizing techniques by the head motion, that was new for me. I’ve tried to come up with a definition/rule for throw vs. take-down before, but there always seems to be an exception. So far the best I’ve been able to come up with is pretty bad, ‘If someone gets thrown, it’s a throw. Everything else is a take-down.’ We all know what throwing is outside of MA, I think the same rules apply within MA. ? (Still, there will always be that grey area.)
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1125533]In Chinese word, there is only one word for throw/takedown and that’s (Shuai). IMO, the
- throw is to use your leg (or body pulling) to take your opponent’s feet off the ground such as sweep, cut, hook, twist, sickle, spring, hip throw, bowing throw, …
- takedown is to use your leg to trap/block your opponent’s leg and only to use your hands to push your opponent down.[/QUOTE]
Though I don’t believe there is really a wrong answer on this issue, I like John’s definitions above. Though I prefer to use the word “trip” rather than “takedown”.
As an example:
White Ape Exits the Cave : Double Seal Hand, Seizing Leg is a throw, while Luanjie: Sky Dividing Elbow is a trip.
[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1125610]Though I don’t believe there is really a wrong answer on this issue, I like John’s definitions above. Though I prefer to use the word “trip” rather than “takedown”.
As an example:
White Ape Exits the Cave : Double Seal Hand, Seizing Leg is a throw, while Luanjie: Sky Dividing Elbow is a trip.[/QUOTE]
Sorry to be a brat. 
But I see problems.
Sometimes a throw is just pick someone up and throw them. No legs/body pulling involved.
Also, not all take-downs are trips. Twisting the head to ground, or arm-bar to ground, for example, I would not consider trips, but still take-downs.
I’ll simplify things for ya…
“Take downs” imply that you take a person to the ground in a controlled manner in an effort to control or subdue them on the ground. Jiu Jitsu, wrestling, and to a lesser degree, Judo, and shuai jiao.
A throw is slamming their @ss on the ground with reckless abandon in an effort to injure or incapacitate them upon the impact. No further action required by you. Judo, Shuai Jiao, or it’s derivative found in most TCMAs… kuai jiao.
Mantis “throws” in the kuai jiao spirit. You harass the high gate to sweep the bottom, read Mooying’s technique descriptions especially starting at #2.
I wasn’t really under the impression that shuai jiao was throw only, pretty sure it’s take-downs too.
Still, as long as their ‘@ss’ can also be their ‘head’ I pretty much agree with you MB.
classically John descrtiption fits best. IMHO