[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1072920]Do you have any Yik Kam stanzas that relate to exactly what you are discussing here, or have you got varied Taiji stanzas that have helped you integrate the knowledge into your WCK? Or are they one and the same?[/QUOTE]Hendrik has already posted some earlier in the thread: http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1072800&postcount=27
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1072918]IMO- 1. one does not need taiji or gulao or Yik Kam to get to that point… good Ip Man wing chun will do it too.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1072918]Good instruction regardless of origin will help develop the skills to float.[/QUOTE]
This is also what I am getting at. But I would say that ‘excellent’ Ip Man Wing Chun will do it too imho
[QUOTE=CFT;1072924]Hendrik has already posted some earlier in the thread: http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1072800&postcount=27[/QUOTE]
You mean these four lines?
1,
Collect the Intention/Attention union with the awareness in the Equal Shoulder stance
2,
Both hands raise forward duality is form.
3, ,
Left Leg trips out there is a aiding and counter effect. Right heel with spiral force tightly stored.
4,
Qi activity in Dan Dien and the Du Medirian while the spine is loosely discending.
FME This is organised and sounds like Taiji stanza or kuit. If Yik Kam had this to support his SLT then that is great, as it has sure helped Hendrik understand his SLT.
BUT imhhho fme this is not original SLT Kuit.
This is more like SLT Kuit I have witnessed. From wingchunpedia.org but again, there are no Chinese characters online there and I thought this particular set was from Sifu Augustine Fong.
1.Siu Lien Tau comes first; Do not force progress in training.
2.A weak body must start with strength improvement.
3.Do not keep any bad habit.
4.Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma - Train the chi by controlling the Tan Tien.
5.To maintain good balance of strength, grip the ground with the toes.
6.To release chi from the Tan Tien, will enable proper release of power.
7.Sink the elbow and drop the shoulders; Guarding the centerline to protect both flanks.
8.There are one hundred and eight moves, all practical and real; Thousands of variations can be used, aiming for practical use and not beauty.
9.Internally develop the chi; externally train the tendons, bones and muscles.
10.Taun Sau, Bong Sau, Fok Sau, Wu Sau, and Huen Sau; their wonder grows with practice.
11.Each movement must be clear and crisp. Timing must be observed.
12.Practice once a day, more will cause no harm.
FWIW What Hendrik has is either an extension of ONE of these lines, or simply something inherited by Yik Kam from another source. Again, my opinion only as I can’t make any claims to know anything more.
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1072927]
FWIW What Hendrik has is either an extension of ONE of these lines, or simply something inherited by Yik Kam from another source. Again, my opinion only as I can’t make any claims to know anything more.[/QUOTE]
Nope. it is not extension…etc.
it is a small part of the original “operating manual” of the SLT; comes hand on hand with the 108 points SLT long form passed down by Yik Kam from the Red Boat.
The kuen kuit explain the details of the sets.
Such as the above four stanzas. it is describing how one starts from standing naturally to complete the YJKYM, the details needs to pay attention and handle interm of body mind Qi and momentum…etc.
This type of writing is accord with classical Chinese Kuen kuit if one study history of Classical Chinese kuen kuit;
in fact, as I have shared many times, within this “operating manual” one can find the trace of White crane’s fujian and Emei 12 zhuang’s terminology and signature clearly.
This is the type of writing one expect when it comes to kuen kuit, a full description not up for intepretation or fuzzy saying such as
Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma - Train the chi by controlling the Tan Tien.
So, in the old time, for IN- DOOR STUDENT, when one train in SLT, one’s sifu goes through each movements with line by line of the kuen kuit to make sure everything is handle properly.
For your information, my late Sifu CHC went throught it with me. and I even have the writing letter between him and me to prove the discussion of Kuen kuit and movement exist.
Think about Kuen kuit as an “operating manual” and Spec. instead of some wisdom saying which everyone can interplate as one likes.
and also, in the evolution different branch comes up with different Saying such as " hand never return" those are not a complete kuen kuit, those are tips/ saying /instruction for a particular situation and for a particular person.
Again, Kuen kuit is a full description one must not mistaken.
Also, all these stuffs are writting in a particular way or structure so if one look at the taiji or Emei or wu dang or shao lin kuen kuit/po they follow classical chinese model and also it comes with big picture and small details. It is absolutely not those fragmented saying or wise words. it is fully technical and details. and that is the reason I could trace the white crane and Emei from Yik Kam’s kuen kuit. because we could find the signatures and match it. There is no ambiguety.
Again, I am not here to sell you Yik Kam this or Yik Kam that. I am just sharing with you this type of things exist in reality and for me, with the evident I have seen and experimenting with, the WCK history case is closed and the ancestors were telling the truth — the crane and the snake. the crane from fujian and the snake from emei.
Speaking as a WCner position, we are lucky that the Cho family preserved the long form SLT kuen kuit because that is a part of our identity where we could trace. if we lost that writing we lost the traceablity. as I mention before we could trace WCk up to pre 1840 and then tap into White Crane and Emei kuen kuit to go even further.
[QUOTE=GlennR;1072877]Thanks for that John
GlennR[/QUOTE]
Just realize that the last question that you asked, “compare WC and Taiji” was not for me. It’s just so happen that my first name is John too.
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1072927]
1.Siu Lien Tau comes first; Do not force progress in training.
2.A weak body must start with strength improvement.
3.Do not keep any bad habit.
4.Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma - Train the chi by controlling the Tan Tien.
5.To maintain good balance of strength, grip the ground with the toes.
6.To release chi from the Tan Tien, will enable proper release of power.
7.Sink the elbow and drop the shoulders; Guarding the centerline to protect both flanks.
8.There are one hundred and eight moves, all practical and real; Thousands of variations can be used, aiming for practical use and not beauty.
9.Internally develop the chi; externally train the tendons, bones and muscles.
10.Taun Sau, Bong Sau, Fok Sau, Wu Sau, and Huen Sau; their wonder grows with practice.
11.Each movement must be clear and crisp. Timing must be observed.
12.Practice once a day, more will cause no harm.
[/QUOTE]
…here is some more nonsense with equal amounts of importance…
The Creation Kuit
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters…
GoD
(wonder how long this will stay on here. Less time than my last one me thinks!!!)
A question for Henrik regarding Yik Kam Kuen Kuit.
I understand 3 of the 4.
Could you comment on this one:
3, ,
Left Leg trips out there is a aiding and counter effect. Right heel with spiral force tightly stored.
Is that in YGKYM or when you step into a forward stance?
joy chaudhuri
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1072886]I disagree. Hendrik is not “completely clear” – he is maddeningly unclear. Even though I know what he is talking about, he only succeeds in making it confusing! He is using comic book language, poor reasoning, pseudo-science, etc. Quite frankly, if I didn’t already know Hendrik I would assume he was a complete idiot and a fraud, just like many people here.
And none of that (ting jing, dong jing, hua jing) will apply to fighting. Those things are not “real”. They don’t describe what is really going on with either your body or with your interaction (chi sao or fighting) with your opponent. There are no various “energies”. [/QUOTE]
TN, Whether you like it or not, this is the paradigm which I studied and extrapolated much of my method from - it comes from TCMA, language and culture. Whether it is “real” or “false”, it matters not - it is a paradigm which exists from the ancients. Just as the Greeks had a paradigm of Zeus, Hades, etc. if we are to understand, we need to shift to a new pair of lenses. If I were to “translate” the paradigm, I would say, Hendrik is doing “martial arts based on feeling” and “knowing the opponent’s intention”. This is not different than BJJ’s feeling out the opponent and completing their moves as they move, then position and submission.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1072886]Looking at martial arts this way is not in any way helpful – it is counter-productive. It will only make you worse. You will be going in the wrong direction in your training, your thinking, in everything you do. Looking at the world, your body, fighting, etc. through fantasy terms, using a fantasy model, etc. only takes you off course. [/QUOTE]
You are overly doing it in one direction. Treat it as if you were a socio-anthropologist and understand that the language of TCMA existed by the people of that time. It is very different than contemporary Chinese, for example if you look at Spencer’s posting of Augustine Fong’s Kuen Kuit, it has a modern flavor, as opposed to the classical Chinese writing of Yik Kam writing (remember in Yik Kam’s time perhaps 10% of the population could read and write). Yik Kam’s choice of characters reflected a highly educated standard as opposed to contemporary Chinese writing. You don’t see stuff like that anymore.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1072886]I think that is all nonsense too. WTF does that mean? Have you ever noticed that boxing, wrestling, BJJ, etc. doesn’t talk about the opponent’s “intention”? Let alone being “in accord with it.” Or about “silence”? Etc. They are concerned with reality, what really matters, etc. Not nonsense. [/QUOTE]
Since I am from the Chan school like Hendrik, the study of “silence” means to let the “ego get out of the way” and “silence the thoughts in your head” so that the “Buddha Nature” which is akin to “God shines through” or your “original nature” of “calm, reflecting and in the moment” allow you to feel and sense your opponent’s intentions. From there you use your mechanics, position and ground and pound, control, etc. We use the paradigms of the ancients like a Rosetta Stone, to glean the insights of generations before. There was a good episode of “Star Trek, the Next Generation”, which Picard was trying to communicate with an alien race who used only metaphors and paradigms derived from their history and did not speak a straightforward language based on subject, noun, verb, etc. I can understand your frustration, but dismissing Chinese culture with an ethnocentric POV is limiting.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1072886]WCK is very simple. Not easy to do mind you, but very simple and straight forward: control the opponent (by breaking his structure and keeping it broken) while striking him. Focus on THAT. Focus on DOING THAT. Not all the bullsh1t.[/QUOTE]
Yes, that is a socio-political product of the modernization of China. The TCMA began to take a turn of modernization with “bourgeois non-intellectual” language. But the demands of a peasant ruler doesn’t invalidate 5000 years of culture and history. Maybe you’d be one of the “Red Guard” zealots towards modernization. LOL! 
To dismiss as BS is irresponsible and ethnocentric.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1072886]Neijia is more nonsense. WCK has it’s OWN mechanics for doing what it does. If someone wants to develop those mechanics, the ONLY way is by and through doing what it does.[/QUOTE]
You are misunderstanding my classification of “Nei Jia” and “Nei Xiu”. In here, I am saying “Nei Jia” as a classification of study of inner workings, mechanics, alignment, form, etc., not just a preference of “external” use or function. It is a Nei Xiu (Inner cultivation) as it allows one to understand the dynamic of thought (or perhaps 'non-thought") that the ancients were describing. Again, look at it from a “socio-anthropological” context, as opposed to your dislike of “Tai Ji wimps who can’t fight outta a paper bag”.
And I think it was, like so many of Hendrik’s threads – which could be useful – to be a complete waste of time.[/QUOTE]
Yes, if you cannot understand what is beyond it at face value.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1072886]I agree that John provided good insight into the difference between WCK and tai ji’s METHOD.
With regard to “noise or silence” – all that Hendrik is providing is more fantasy fu for the fire.[/QUOTE]
I will say “silence” is basically “STFU and lissen up”.
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1072936]A question for Henrik regarding Yik Kam Kuen Kuit.
I understand 3 of the 4.
Could you comment on this one:
3, ,
Left Leg trips out there is a aiding and counter effect. Right heel with spiral force tightly stored.
Is that in YGKYM or when you step into a forward stance?
joy chaudhuri[/QUOTE]
Joy,
That is when one open the stance wider to left and right.
first one stand in the equal shoulder stance,
these stanza pair above is when one open wider the stance to make YJKYM wider stance, and the last stanza is when one descent down into the YJKYM at that point one also sink the Qi into Dan dien… with spine handling…etc
So at the end of the 4th stanza one is in the YJKYM position. However, all what was instruct and learn from all the few stanzas applied in the YJKYM position and there on.
hope this help.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1072939]Joy,
That is when one open the stance wider to left and right.
first one stand in the equal shoulder stance,
these stanza pair above is when one open wider the stance to make YJKYM wider stance, and the last stanza is when one descent down into the YJKYM at that point one also sink the Qi into Dan dien… with spine handling…etc
So at the end of the 4th stanza one is in the YJKYM position. However, all what was instruct and learn from all the few stanzas applied in the YJKYM position and there on.
hope this help.[/QUOTE]
Ok- so it’s a Yik Kam way of for widening the stance. No problem.Thx.
Joy Chaudhuri
“for example if you look at Spencer’s posting of Augustine Fong’s Kuen Kuit, it has a modern flavor, as opposed to the classical Chinese writing of Yik Kam writing” RC
Sure- but quite understandable. Let’s enjoy Hendrik’s explanation rather than getting into
comparisons.
Joy Chaudhuri
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1072944]“for example if you look at Spencer’s posting of Augustine Fong’s Kuen Kuit, it has a modern flavor, as opposed to the classical Chinese writing of Yik Kam writing” RC
Sure- but quite understandable. Let’s enjoy Hendrik’s explanation rather than getting into
comparisons.
Joy Chaudhuri[/QUOTE]
Joy,
I’m simply pointing out the language difference between classical and contemporary Chinese.
Augustine’s work and genius should be given the credit it is due. Too many people have plagiarized him without giving proper credit and citation.
And his complete writings shows he is wide read in Chinese martial literature.
[QUOTE=chusauli;1072947]Joy,
I’m simply pointing out the language difference between classical and contemporary Chinese.
Augustine’s work and genius should be given the credit it is due. Too many people have plagiarized him without giving proper credit and citation.
And his complete writings shows he is wide read in Chinese martial literature.[/QUOTE]
Robert- Understood.
Joy Chaudhuri
Ok, maybe it’s me but do we really need archaic terms and POV’s?
The studies done on sports performance, genetics, biomechanics, nutrition, perforhance enhancers and things of that nature that have been done over the last 20 years have given us some serious insight in to human athletic performance.
Terms
The reason why some people say sink the weight or root the weight in Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma is because you are double weighted. The Side stance or forward bracing stance is estimated to be 70/30. Which gives you more mobility and quicker movement. YGKYM is for when your at your opponents flank or when you have his doors open, structure controlled and your in elbow striking range. Forward Bracing stance is use to intitate attack or bridge with your opponent. None of the movements should be stactic in fighting. You practice them stactic so you wont be shaky and not able to hold the stance. But you should be forever moving from one horse to another.
As for Root or Ground…YGKYM does temporarily root or ground it self for striking or uprooting with certain moves. The Root is not as extreme as the hung gar Horse which is wider and less mobile. The YGKYM Root is like that of Crane or White Crane Horse. It should be held relaxed. An the root should be natural. One should not sink to low or be to high. Standing on the bricks facing up the narrow way will teach you how to be light and grounded at the same time. One should be inbetween Light and Heavy. If your too heavy the bricks will fall. If your too light you will fall off the bricks. Too much weight on the bricks causes them to topple. Too little weight on bricks causes your feet.legs and body to shake and wont allow you to get firm grasp or firm footing. Its somewhere in between. When In motion their is a temporary root or sinking of weight. Or maybe i should say distribution of weight is changed by the motion…
for me when I hear root, ground or sink I think center. Now instead of levitation I do think of Floating, moving horse, Riding Horse, Lightness, Light skills, etc. I usually distinuguied the two from Center and lightness. One should be centered and one should be light. Dont always be light because you wont have power behind your attacks. But dont always be centered because you want be able to move out of the way.
Root = Center,Grounded,Sink, Heavy
Levitation = Float,Light skill,Movement, Lightness, Mobile, riding
I like everyones take on the subject of levitation…
But boxers also levitate…You got inside boxers and swarmers. You got boxers who swarm their opponent with a barage of attacks which he uses a root or grounds himself to deliver power. An you have a boxer who floats who uses his body momentum to deliver power while moving in and out of range. It depends on the fighter…
Float like a butterfly sting like a be!
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1072950]Ok, maybe it’s me but do we really need archaic terms and POV’s?
The studies done on sports performance, genetics, biomechanics, nutrition, perforhance enhancers and things of that nature that have been done over the last 20 years have given us some serious insight in to human athletic performance.[/QUOTE]
No question on the development of sports related literature. But classical literature helps illuminate other things besides sporting activity.
BTW-among other works - for those with pointy head inclinations—
Needham’s classic multi volume work :Science and Civilization in China can help understanding
the foundations and history of Chinese science…
one need not throw the baby out with the bathwater in understanding comparative history.
joy chaudhuri
[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;1072952]Dont always be light because you wont have power behind your attacks. But dont always be centered because you want be able to move out of the way.
[/QUOTE]
is the flying helicopter’s blade light or heavy, it is center or de center? or all the above?
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1072954]-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No question on the development of sports related literature. But classical literature helps illuminate other things besides sporting activity.
BTW-among other works - for those with pointy head inclinations—
Needham’s classic multi volume work :Science and Civilization in China can help understanding
the foundations and history of Chinese science…
one need not throw the baby out with the bathwater in understanding comparative history.
joy chaudhuri[/QUOTE]
Very true Joy but what if the archaic terms and VP become the source of the problems?
EX: The study of genetics has shown as that some people are, in a nutshell, freaks.
genetic marvels that move faster, are stronger, jump higher (etc) than the vast majority of people, we see them at the elite levels of sports and the even more rarer uber-elite levels.
Nowadays we are not under any dilusions, or at least we shouldn’t be, that these freaks are that because they were born that way ( neither one of us is breaking the 9 second mark in the 100 but someone will eventually and they will do it because they were born to do it).
But not too long ago those feats could have easily been, and many were, chalked up to “special training” or “chi” or “secret potions”.
hendrik here are qoutes
"Lower the stance downward, sinking through the knees. Lok ma is where the “rootedness” is developed. It trains the legs to effectively support the body, and helps the practitioner to, later on, develop the advancing steps of Wing Chun. "
“This occurs naturally as the knees are bent as the body weight relaxes and sinks down. The all too familiar admonishment of the traditional old sifu’s to “sink” refers to allowing the body to relax properly in order for the weight to drop and push the knees forward and down.”
“The knees are not forced in, but forward. The knees are not stiff, but relaxedly sink as you relax more and more forwards and downward. Kim sut is sometimes too much effort for. It depends on strengthening your thighs, knees and ankles. Imagine being rooted to the floor, as though you are part of the ground. Imagine the ideas of “sinking” and “rooting” and your stances and steps will be far stronger.”
[QUOTEhttp://www.yunhoiwingchun.com/Articles/Structure/PrinciplesofWingChunbodystructure/tabid/126/Default.aspx[/QUOTE]
Kuit Kuen says:
"- Sink the elbows, the shoulders, and the waist. "
Question: What does sink the waist mean and why do that?
[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;1072952]
I like everyones take on the subject of levitation…
[/QUOTE]
That is how is suppose to be and grow together.