Kung Fu "Reverting to Kickboxing" - rantish

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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I just wanted to take this opportunity to de-bunk a phrase that I’ve seen tossed around here more than a few times.

#1, how can you “revert” to something you’ve never studied?

What is sometimes meant is: a martial artist reverting to sloppy, undefined, chancy, desperate kicks and punches, with generally very little defense. Not at all like good Kickboxing.

Other times, the aforementioned phrase is meant as: “In the context of a sport environment, I couldn’t distinguish his Kung Fu striking from Kickboxing.”

Now, if an art #1, that was designed for battle, is applied to a sport with rules and gear, and you watch the result of this in action, and, wonder of wonders, the art reaches mostly the same conclusions as art #2, that was specifically designed with this gear and these rules in mind, what does that say about art #1?

That it follows generally solid physical principles.
That practioners of this art are well equipped to adapt it to fit their surroundings.
The art has a mental base, as well as a physical base.
Etc.

Now, let’s look at San Shou in China. If it were true that San Shou players ditched their Chinese-style mechanics for Western-style mechanics, in entirety, then it would be correct to criticize them as being no different from Kickboxing. But, I highly doubt that this is the case, given that some Chinese -style mechanics are
perfectly adaptable to this kind of environment. Waterdragon knows what I’m talking about, anyone who’s used Kung-Fu in the ring will know what I’m talking about.

To re-iterate, students do not “revert” to a style they have never studied. My other point is that punching and kicking are good, this is half of Kung Fu, if you punch and kick frequently and well in a sport environment, that’s good, commendable. If you look like you don’t know what your doing, that’s not good. If you look like you are doing another style, it’s because you were taught that other style at some point. Some people are taught flat-fisted punching first in their lives, and haven’t broken the habit, maybe have no desire to.

Anybody with me here?

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fa jing,

yep, i’m with ya.

it irritates me to no end when people pass off bad sparring as kickboxing. why is it not enough to say it was bad sparring? or go the extra mile and specify that it was just ineffectual punches and kicks? why inaccurately characterize it as being merely kickboxing?

a good kickboxer has to understand a lot of very refined concepts, and to refer to poorly executed kungfu as being kickboxing is an insult to that accomplishment.

nice post fa jing.

stuart b.

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Very nice post indeed Fa Jing.

I agree. As a kickboxer, had I ever thought of it like that, it would have p!ssed me off.

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Good post Fa-jing, I completely agree with what your saying.

Good fundamentals are very adaptable. Effective core techniques and basics are what get the job done and hold up under pressure in a variety of situations. Just because they may not see stereotypical stylistic movements does not mean that CMA fundamentals are not there working. People often seem to look for and focus on the exotic and mysical aspects of their style and look down on the basics, stating that it looks like ‘mere’ kickboxing and feeling like they have better techniques of a higher pedigree. Often their basics s#ck and then they get crushed when and if they are put to the test.

Of course that doesnt mean that an experienced CMA practitioner will automatically make a good kickboxer or ring fighter, the key word here is adaptable; it takes lots of hard work and focused training. Some people seem to get this part confused. I think it gives credit to CMA’s potential and effectiveness to see that a well trained San Shou fighter can compete very successfully with tried and true ring sports such as Kickboxers and Muay Tai under their rules and win a respectable percentage of the time.

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I think the phrase " Bad secondary schoolyard fighting would be more appropriate".

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ttt

need a few more views. :slight_smile:

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Some people call Muay Thai Kick boxing. Kick boxing is the name of a sport which combines boxing type moves and kicks like those of Okinawan, Japanese or Korean (martial arts). K-1 probablly allows Muay Thai type kicks.

Americans name things descrptively–New York, South Dakota, golden oaks, Silver Spring, snake eyes, fire arm. The British do it. The Native American Indians–Running Bear, Two Feathers, White Elk… The Chinese–Cloud HandsMantis style, Snake style…

Someone could look at Ying Jow P’ai, Southern Praying Mantis Ba Gua, and Southern Shaolin forms and wouldn’t know the names or styles or systems but might know them under the banner of Kung-Fu.

While a sport got the name of a description. The description was was still used as a seperate entity. In my circels people say Kleenex when referring to facial tissue. Or Xeroxx when talking photocopiers… I think that these are reverse of what I’m saying but you get the idea. Same sounding-different meaning.

The meaning of punch like strikes and use of legs that might resemble a motion called kick it might be called kickboxing.

And relevant to mutant mention, the long perhaps sometimes exagerated movements of fighting Kung-Fus gets abreviated in use. Keeping principles and tactics it does approach boxing like maneuves and has kicks.

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Does it even matter, kickboxing or not?

Either you hit or get hit.

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LOL..but..err…what if i used to be a karateka, and a TKDer before that? Then I can “revert” yes? Sifu always points out how a certain stance or move, or stomp :stuck_out_tongue: is karate and to get it the hell outta his kwoon. :smiley:

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If you are kickboxing and throw a quick right knockout jab the way Muhammad Ali does, you’re DOING kung fu.

That would be the transitional “Golden Rooster Stands on One Leg” pose in the “Tan Tui” set of Northern Shaolin - and from what I hear Wing Lam’s students use it exactly this way.

The bouncing footwork? That’s Monkey step. It’s hard to catch too. Monkey itself utilizes this step, and even Drunken Boxing does as well. 7-star Mantis has this move built in, and Choy Li Fut and Tongbei type styles use the bouncing footwork because it WORKS.

Or how about the round rolling jing that boxers use to hit the speed bag - or opponent’s heads on occasion? That’s “Chain Punching” from Wing Chun’s Siu Lum Tao. The low reverse punch that boxers use - that’s Hsing I’s “Tsuan Chuan” (I think) from the 5 Elements set.

Kicking itself? Kickboxers regularly jam the kicks of their opponents with their knees or legs. Well, that’s the 7-star step that features the toe pointing up. Yang Taijiquan also practices this step, especially before going into movements. That’s no surprise, as it’s often necessary to prevent an opponent from kicking you in midmovement and so you have to preempt his offense with one of your own.

And often “sloppy, undefined, chancy, desperate kicks and punches, with generally very little defense” is enough to keep a more dangerous opponent at bay. Survival is ENOUGH 99.9999% of the time.

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Got some right stuff about Mantis in there Hung Vai. I think the point you are trying to make, and its a point well made, is many styles use variations of the same thing under different names. After all, we only have 2 hands and 2 feet right? But styles have their different accents, I would definately say. :slight_smile:

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AAAAAAAAAAAAAMEN!

I said this for years!!!

Good Job!! Well said!!

:cool: :smiley: :cool:

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Don’t tell me we all agree. :eek:

Where’s the fun in that?

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“Please Captain, not in front of the Klingons.”

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It is very common among practitioners of Chinese Martial Arts to fight as practicing Kickboxing, and this occurs because they do not master the style they train. Chinese Martial Arts have nothing has to do with this type of fight technique.

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Once you lose the ability to use open hand techniques (like when you put on boxing gloves) your arsenal is mostly limited to punches and kicks … well, knees and elbows as well I guess. Grabbing is also harder.

So what are you left with? Something that looks like kickboxing. Doesn’t mean it is any better or worse, just different.

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Originally posted by Unmatchable
It is very common among practitioners of Chinese Martial Arts to fight as practicing Kickboxing, and this occurs because they do not master the style they train. Chinese Martial Arts have nothing has to do with this type of fight technique.

CMA doesn’t punch and kick???

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Fa jing,

Your initial post said it best. There is nothing to revert to. There are only sloppy fighters and good fighters.

I keep asking these questions for years.
What is kung fu supposed to fight like? Is it supposed to look like the movies? Is it supposed to conform verbatim to the forms? The answer is no.

Will you use elements from your form? Absolutely.
Can you transfer your skills to spar with set rules? Absolutely.

Do you see good footwork from skilled fighters in san shou? Absolutely.

Is it still kung fu when you have sharp skills in an event with strict rules that limits contact and usage of technique? absolutely. High skill is, after all, what kung fu means.
Just because you can’t do an arm or knee break, or sweep the guys back foot(like in some events), or do any soft tissue manipulations(clawing), or any number of things, stops it being kung fu.

Does kung fu have punching and kicking? Absolutely, and in endless combinations. Its not all butterfly palms and cat stances. LOL!

Does it have to be a slop fest? absolutely not!

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ttt

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I think mainly the problem is that bad sparring often resembles bad kickboxing in some peoples opinions because they fall to sloppy punching and kicking. For someone who undertsands the art they are watching they could probably pick out sloppy techniques and differentiate.