product of sparring too early
The kickboxing issue is a result of schools sparring/competing too soon, the students mold the technque subconsciously in an incorrect manner before the system is learnt to an appreciable degree.
Gary
GARY…but I feel that students need to compete to deal with the psychological pressure of sparring…even amauteur boxers first look like crap…but those that stay and continue to fight will eventually look more and more crisp! This issue of sparring too soon is not really an issue. Sparring is a valuable experience…in terms of bad technique…your coach and can bring u back in the gym and work with you on that. But until then he can’t fix what is broken if he doesn’t see it.
exacly my point
Go back to school…
look up the term-“State induced learning”
Sparring too soon Is an issue, get it right, then spar, then fix what breaks under stress!
PS your ****ing up my post marithon, I almost have whole page…
cease…and desist…
Re: product of sparring too early
gary,
Originally posted by gazza99
[B]The kickboxing issue is a result of schools sparring/competing too soon, the students mold the technque subconsciously in an incorrect manner before the system is learnt to an appreciable degree.
Gary [/B]
i actually think the opposite is true. it’s an indication that sparring has taken place too late. if a technique is learned, then drilled, then practiced in sparring, then a person can learn to use it in a fairly random environment from the get go. but a lot of schools teach the student a large body of knowledge first, then throw them into sparring so they can learn to apply it all at the same time.
that just doesn’t seem very practical to me. there’s always a discrepancy between ideal performance and real execution. better to reconcile that discrepancy as we go along, rather than trying to reconcile it all at the same time.
internalizing more of the style before sparring just leaves you with more to reconcile on the mat. seems like a bad training strategy to me. but that’s just my opinion.
stuart b.
What Ap said. I couldn’t imagine learning up to a senior blue belt’s worth of technique, then being told to go spar for the first time.
Nothing I knew would work and I’d look like a fish flopping around out there.
Exactly. Sparring is the process of making the logical leaps between the ideal technique and the applicable technique. I think it’s far more productive to concentrate on doing that one technique at a time (e.g., sparring using nothing but the jab, or the round kick, or defense only, or takedowns, or whatever).
stuart b.
Definitely, Apo. I heard several masters who, when talking about their own training said something along “we’d practice sparring only with one punch for weeks, one the attacker, one the defender, always the same punch and same level…then we would add a punch…or mix another strike level in…” They’d do that for weeks, even months, before adding kicks (only on level at a time), then mixing it with other techniques.
Of course, it was VERY long, and I guess boring, but definitely, the guys could punch, kick and wrestle after that…if you go sparring right away, chances are you’ll always fight in a sloppy way.
It also reminds me of Wong Kiew Kit saying “nowadays they teach fighting by sparring…but back in the days, sparring was there as a test to verify that we could fight, not the mean of teaching fight”.
well, i think sparring at an early level is good. i think it should be used as a more mindful training tool though. it tends to get used without much direction. it should be used, in my opinion, to methodically progress from new technique to tried-and-true technique. right from the get go.
stuart b.
I agree with Ap, too, My sifu has always told us that it is best to just concentrate on 1 or two things you would like to work on, each round. For learning purposes. I found that this was the only way I could actually execute a technique appropriately and correctly, in the beginning. I’m still gradually increasing the number of reliable techniques in my arsenal. Also, I agree that sparring should happen after the first few months, it is necessary to learn general things first - keep your hands up, eyes open, don’t turn your back, what is the toll that it takes on your endurance. You need to have these aspects covered before you can concentrate on correct execution of techniques. So there is alot to be learned doing sparring and there is no reason to put it off, as long as your teacher corrects your mistakes. It also helps if you spar with your teacher or someone far better than you - having too much of an ego about who “wins or loses” or “getting” the other guy, will interfere with the learning process.
On the other hand, being in an actual competition is good too, for learning about that aspect - but not the place to be building your techniques.
-FJ
ttt
Lordy, you must have used a back-hoe to dig this one back up.
It came up in a search and I was reminded of one of my better days hehe just making sure the next generation of KFO readers is with it… We seem to be experiencing a high rate of turnover…
Seriuosly , we need to get things back on track around here so we can achieve the potential of this forum. Enough bandering about. 
Just an observation…
When filming the History of Martial Arts for the Discovery channel, the crew came upon a young monk practicing what looked like western boxing. When they asked him about it he affirmed their observations. He was practicing western boxing. His response was typically kung fu arrogant, but worth mentioning… he said something like “kung fu is more sophisticated and deadly, but boxing promotes basic and effective combat skills.”
blah blah blah
in regards to the sparring issue- is either side wrong?
-
You can learn techniques for months ( or even years ) before finally stepping into a sparring ring and learning how to apply them. Of coarse, there will be a period of time where you must adjust and learn how to apply the techniques in a live sparring scenario and how to time them.
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Then again, you could simply throw a new student into a sparring ring with other skilled practitioners, and he will inevitably learn (to SOME extent ) how to dodge/ block/ and counter their attacks and gets a feel for their openings and weaknesses…and basically how to use his body in combat. As he picks up new techniqes, he will already have developed timing, footwork, reflexes, etc and other skills that are naturally learned in the ring. Where as when techniques are taught first, the student must wait till he’s “ready to spar” to learn those ring skills. I imagine that teaching sparring first would avoid the “reverting to sloppy technique” scenario that often happens in the ring ( during tournaments or just sparring sessions).
The second one is a much more painful process for the student but it DOES work. It will put you to the test and if you aren’t strong willed you will end up quitting ( cause your tired of getting beat up). This is how I was taught in both tae kwon do and jiu jitsu… by getting my @ss kicked on a regular basis.
Of coarse you must have people to spar that are much better than you. I dont believe having beginners sparring beginners to be as good of a learning process.
So… um.. yeah I think both ways can be effective in teaching. To say that a certain method of teaching just DOESNT WORK is ignorant… it depends on the student.
those aren’t the only two options though. there’s a middle ground.
on the one side, you spend years practicing technique and cementing what’s “right” in your head before getting into sparring and realizing that your conception of “right” will have to withstand some tweaking. or you’ll be trapped by that previous training.
on the other side, you just throw a person in and hope they figure it out by trial and error.
the middle ground is that you introduce each tool and go through a progression. you learn jabbing in the air. then on a bag maybe. then with some focus mitt drills. then more freeform (dynamic) focus mitt drills. then some scripted sparring drills (i’m going to try and tag you with a jab-cross combo; you’re going to try and interrupt that combo with jabs of your own), then some less scripted sparring (i’m going to come after you at a slightly slower than normal pace, and you’re going to concentrate on working the jab to keep distance, interrupt rhythm, create openings, etc.), then free sparring.
take a technique and run it through all of the steps so that it goes from being a new idea to an applicable tool. repeat as necessary.
stuart b.
They’re not referring to using sloppy technique, necessarily; they are referring to not using the principles of your style. For example, if you train bagua, you shouldn’t go into the ring doing backfists and roundhouse kicks. However, that should not be deemed as “reverting to kickboxing” because you can’t revert to something you’ve never trained in.
There’s backfists in bagua! ;p
hang on. does that mean i was reverting to bagua the other night during sparring?
…
it’s cold in here. and there are wolves after me.
stuart b. (clearly been sitting here about three hours too long)
ok, so when do you think ‘free’ sparring should start?
I don’t start em for 9-12 months.
lot’s of two man drilling from the get go:
first preset attacks and responses
then preset attacks w/ variable responses
then variable attacks w/ variable responses
first stages of free sparring are light contact at slower speeds
with no pads.
middle stages are medium/hard contact at medium to full speeds
w/ pads.
upper stages are controlled hard contact (light to groin, eyes,
throat, temple and spine) w/o pads.
good topic, well worth recycling.
I will add that in the beginning stages of free sparring I don’t
correct movement and technique until the student has gotten
comfortable with the situation. So, my beginning students
basically look like the kickboxer paradigm.
to clarify, your beginner students look sloppy when they begin to spar (didn’t we all). Sloppy kickboxing is indistinguishable from sloppy Kung Fu. Good kickboxing is only distinguishable from good kung fu striking, IN A SPORT context, to an observer with considerable expertise in either style.
At the same time, your students bring with them their preconceptions about what their going to do. For some of an Occidental background, this may be based mostly on boxing they’ve seen on TV and the Schoolyard. Other beginner students may have a preconception based on watching Kung Fu movies, and jump around and try flashy stuff. Or you might have a student who wrestled in high school. It usually takes a while to empty your cup…and to learn something on top of that and be effective with it, at least 6 months to a year.