Stop B!tch'n...

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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Ok- it’s time to stop b!tch’n and to offer suggestions. If you believe kung fu doesn’t work- offer up the why, and how to make it work. But… here’s the trick- what, why, and how without losing what makes kung fu… well… kung fu.

I’ll start-

Here are my suggestions:

more sparring… realistic sparring, and scenarios… THE Catch… try to at least do something from your martial arts training that doesn’t involve losing faith in the art and result in you mimicking kickboxing. Maybe not so much sparring right away- but pad up and drill a technique all out- the guy attacks hard- you defend hard- with a real kung fu move. Learn to make it work- then spar.

Develop realistic focus mit drills- and well- drill.

Stop having soooo much compliance once a technique is learned- i.e. progressive resistence training. At first he lets you do it, as you get the mechanics down, he resists.

Your guys’s turn. What can we do to put the martial back into traditional?

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kick, punch, throw, and seize, in whatever order works?

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[QUOTE=MightyB;875497]Ok- it’s time to stop b!tch’n and to offer suggestions. If you believe kung fu doesn’t work- offer up the why, and how to make it work. But… here’s the trick- what, why, and how without losing what makes kung fu… well… kung fu.

I’ll start-

Here are my suggestions:

more sparring… realistic sparring, and scenarios… THE Catch… try to at least do something from your martial arts training that doesn’t involve losing faith in the art and result in you mimicking kickboxing. Maybe not so much sparring right away- but pad up and drill a technique all out- the guy attacks hard- you defend hard- with a real kung fu move. Learn to make it work- then spar.

Develop realistic focus mit drills- and well- drill.

Stop having soooo much compliance once a technique is learned- i.e. progressive resistence training. At first he lets you do it, as you get the mechanics down, he resists.

Your guys’s turn. What can we do to put the martial back into traditional?[/QUOTE]

Reply]
Don’t all the good Kung Fu schools alredy do all this stuff, and always have in one way or another?

I guess I am not in the camp that Kung Fu does not work. I think it;s is the most effective, technically diverse method out there.

I have been saying for some time that one shouldn’t have to look outside thier art to fill deficiencies. Everything you need should be already there. if it’s NOT, your teacher sux. Find someone else who can teach the style better. OR research the methods needed to make your self better with the tools you were given.

Many Kung Fu teachers just give you the tools, and expect you to make them yours. It’s not like a Training program where you are taught everything from the art, to how to train it, and drilled through every detail. I personally think it SHOULD be that way, and certianly the schools that can and do fight well are, but most Kung fu does not take it to that level, and that is the only problem I ever see.

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kick and punch as entry

then end with throws.

most seizing moves are not allowed.

if you are good at punches then KO thru head.

if your kick is fast and hard enough, then KO the opponent on the head.

–

:slight_smile:

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I think we’re falling into the same trap… or the same argument in a different thread.

Let’s not be theoretical- let’s talk real solutions- concrete statements on how to make kung fu work for more people, and work the way it should without giving it up.

Again- I believe in the KISS methodology. Too many techniques leads to confusion. A lot of times the same move is given a zillion different names and then it’s almost taught like it’s a new move when- if you grasp the original simplified version, you can apply it infinitely. Judo teaches in this way. 3 basic throws lead to a zillion variations. You can do 'em all if you learn the first 3. I say relate that to kung fu training.

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The best way to do this would be to stick to the old School training methods. Basics, Single and two man drills, and live skill practice.

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I have found it useful in my own style to look at how other styles do the same things.

If five stylists all do some version of a fireman’s carry, I like seeing them all and seeing the variations and the why for the variations. Kung fu forms tend to be broad enough to imply a lot of variations in a move, so it is always possible, and sometimes occurs, that I missed one.

Kung fu is all about knowing the opposition. Since I do a taoist art, it is essential that my style makes me a part of the fight, and ignorance of the opponent or their style prevents this from happening.

MMA fanboys and kung fu form faerie purists alike miss this, and assume far too much about what they think they are doing. The best professional fighters study their opponents in addition to training like mad, this can only aid their knowledge of how to apply their style.

Some people go from art to art presuming to know the deficiencies of the last art when they never learn to apply the art and so, fail to execute. Their failure might have been the teacher’s error or the deficiency of the teacher’s kung fu, but being taught nothing is not the same as having knowledge.

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[QUOTE=MightyB;875505]Judo teaches in this way. 3 basic throws lead to a zillion variations. You can do 'em all if you learn the first 3. I say relate that to kung fu training.[/QUOTE]

One step in my form is a throw that can be applied in numerous angles and ways.

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For the last two years I have studied Bagua and Shuai Jiao. The Bagua has many throws in the system but they don’t ever practice them. Just do them in the forms and the teacher will show you them maybe one or twice. Shuai Jiao is all about throws but every lesson we practice on a partner and do hard live sparring.

In the last two years I have had two chances to wrestle,[throws no ground work] with two pure kung fu guys that just started Shuai Jiao. Both where convinced there system has throws and can be used on the mat. Both cases the guys couldn’t get off a throw and I was able to throw them 5 or 6 time in a a match that lasted maybe 4 minutes.

They both had good balance and strength which I credit to their kung fu training but couldn’t use there styles throws against someone who practiced a combat sport style.

I know bagua has a form of sparring called Rou Shou but it is barely ever practiced. If the Bagua practioners where to practice regularly against a resistant opponent along with practicing the throws and locks with a partner more often I think Bagua can be very effective in fighting.

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The Bagua my be attempting to develop the body method first. The question is, do ANY of your teachers students get trained like you do in your Shui Jiao?

Once you have Bagua’s body method, you should be working it’s apps, strategy and applications same way you do the Shui Jiao. If not, there is something wrong with the way your teacher is teaching.

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I have had two Bagua teachers one here in the states and one in Beijing. They both teach and train the same way. Teach the application but almost never practice them. I think the stuff is very useful if trained with a partner often,but never seen it done that way in the internal arts.

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Make boxing gloves and headgear standard issue. Use these to work two-man cooperative boxing drills… bridging right to striking, or whatever your style’s specialty is. If these drills are not first nature to you, you should not be teaching.

Increase intensity of drills.

Remove headgear.

Remove gloves.

Put gear back on and fight (not spar) but with super fast stoppage by supervisor. Supervisor needs to be able to read what’s happening at point of engagement.

After 18 months of this training, everyone will become more more comfortable with the situation. Everyone will understand the dangers of certain positions, scenarios. They will respect them.

Now people can pair up to light spar. If egos make it too competitive now there is a forum: fighting.

Not saying this is how it has to be, but it has to be sort of like this. Don’t show it to them in a form. Show them the principle and how it works and make them work it.

This type of training will take care of the other big problem with Kung Fu… talking $hit. There’s never so much talking during what should be training as in Kwoons. Stories about the good old days. Stories of how this style is superior to that style AND WHY:rolleyes: Lots of talk.

If you train this way you’d be embarrassed by the talk. Because you now know what fighting is: a combination of technical skill, physical ability and will. Talk plays no roll. Shut up and train.

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more fitness, more task specific training, goal orientation and attribute development.

I find that the big hurdle for most is in the fitness category.

people are all down with holding postures and learning moves, but the gassing is fast when you are not fit.

do your cal!

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[QUOTE=wiz cool c;875555]I have had two Bagua teachers one here in the states and one in Beijing. They both teach and train the same way. Teach the application but almost never practice them. I think the stuff is very useful if trained with a partner often,but never seen it done that way in the internal arts.[/QUOTE]

Reply]
It sounds like typical modern teachers who don’t know how to teach, or are unwilling. You might be better off getting together with classmates outside of lessons to work the skills.

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Yea when I have time that’s what I plan to do.

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I think what makes most people start doubting their gung fu is that they just take too big a bite and simply can not chew it up. Most systems of gung fu require you be in great physical condition to excell. And until you are, you will not go very far. There is no secrets involved that will make you a fighting master. You have to work very hard. And the first step is to learn the principals of your chosen system and learn them step at a time. Develop your fighting skills a step at a time too. Learn them well and complete before moving on to the next systems of techniques. Even shadow boxing will develop your fighting skills. I also think the thing to do would be to look into the different skills and match them up with your own physical abilities and expectations. If you are not going to ever be capable of achieving a really high level of physical fitness they you are simply ****ing into the wind.
When I was quite young and in school, I knew individuals that could not even spell words like gung fu or karate and probably never even heard of it before, but they had a few fighting skills that they had trained hard and could apply smoothly. Their skills were honed by application. They were tough guys and had reputations for being skilled fighters. These skills were actually limited to a half dozen moves that were well polished.

Chiang

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How can we get rid of unneccessary rubbish in kung fu and bring back/in more effective training methods?

Get rid of bullsh!t mindsets like this:[QUOTE=RD’S Alias - 1A;875501]I guess I am not in the camp that Kung Fu does not work. I think it;s is the most effective, technically diverse method out there.

I have been saying for some time that one shouldn’t have to look outside thier art to fill deficiencies. Everything you need should be already there. if it’s NOT, your teacher sux. Find someone else who can teach the style better. OR research the methods needed to make your self better with the tools you were given.[/quote]1) YOU don’t know how effective it is cos you haven’t used it have you RD? I mean pretty much any of it… in streetfights, in bars, on the door, on a battlefield, in the ring… maybe for helping your balance while you tie your shoelaces…? So your first point is moot, and thus part of the problem.

  1. Saying it’s technically diverse again means nothing. If the right methods aren’t being used to practise these techniques, it’s all just waving in the air… now, maybe it’s two people waving in the air at each other, but it’s still just waving in the air.

  2. There’s no such thing as the complete art. If you think there aren’t deficiencies in your art you’re part of the problem. The same goes for more modern sports based arts, and for MMA.

  3. Saying that we need to practise how people in fu used to practise is also largely pipe-dreaming. Since most fuers no longer practise that way, there’s no way of knowing what they did, so anything you do in that direction will be reinventing the wheel and therefore pointless.

Your ‘find a good teacher’ point works. And of course, testing yourself against other stylists: be prepared for a beating.

Otherwise in answer to the first post I think by now anyone who cares will know how to train realistically:

basics kiss resistance resistance resistance repeat ad infinitum.

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[QUOTE=RD’S Alias - 1A;875501]Reply]
Don’t all the good Kung Fu schools alredy do all this stuff, and always have in one way or another?

I guess I am not in the camp that Kung Fu does not work. I think it;s is the most effective, technically diverse method out there.[/QUOTE]so you think your martial art is better than anyone elses, never heard that one before:rolleyes:

I have been saying for some time that one shouldn’t have to look outside thier art to fill deficiencies. Everything you need should be already there. if it’s NOT, your teacher sux. Find someone else who can teach the style better. OR research the methods needed to make your self better with the tools you were given.

so ground fighting is taught in wing chun? wow never knew that:rolleyes:

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[QUOTE=golden arhat;875690]so you think your martial art is better than anyone elses, never heard that one before:rolleyes:

so ground fighting is taught in wing chun? wow never knew that:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Dude, you guys are so programmed. Ground fighting is not a part of Wing Chun, but many kung fu schools that teach wing chun, shaolin, or anything else, have instituted groundfighting seminars and regular classes to get the basics of groundfighting and basic submissions. It doesn’t mean it’s wing chun, but you can learn the basics in groundfighting nonetheless in case you go to the ground…so you don’t lie there trying to poke out eyes and tear out throats Roadhouse style. The submissions are all wrestling based and BJJ based, or JJJ based. Submissions are old, and many teachers have seen them one way or another, so they’re not just making some BS up. So if someone goes to a wing chun school, or the Shaolin shchool I go to, and they learn groundfighting, it doesn’t mean it’s shaolin, but it is taught to complement it, so. …well…it is shaolin.

This forum is so goddam retarded sometimes.:rolleyes:

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[QUOTE=Shaolin Wookie;875692]
This forum is so goddam retarded sometimes.:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

I think you’re right.

You want to know what prompted this thread? Seeing that d@mn Keysi Fighting Method video and realising that people studying a Made-Up art train more realistically than the average kung fu-er. We’re more likely to see people fighting and winning in mma with kfm than kung fu, and that’s pretty fugg’n sad. It actually peeves me off. Heck- half of the CQB that’s out there is made up and frigg’n has better training methodology than a supposeable war art with a deep history.

Here’s more solutions- San Shou has to be taught as a base before any “traditional” kung fu training. Once you get the basics of really fighting down, you should be able to ad realistic chin na, increase your variety of kicking and striking angles, and develop more complex throwing.