" Why Kung Fu Won't Work In Combat!! "

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

First off i’m so tired of hearing ppl say kung fu does’nt work in combat i wanna just.

!@#$% somebody.

Ok i’m joking about !@#$% somebody. :smiley:

But i was reading some post when i saw a guy who’d been studiing kung fu for 10yrs say that his school did no sparring and he felt he could’nt use his kung fu in a fight.It took you 10yrs of training to figure something was wrong with your training?:eek: Doh!!

I have to admit at one time i was worried about my kung fu in a real fight or even a NHB type tournament.That was yrs ago back before i started training like my life depended on it.Because when the time comes that i need to use my kung fu in a fight my life must be depending on it.I’ve had many fights over my life. When i was alot younger of course.The area of miami,fl where i live it’s a requirement just to walk on the sidewalk.I’ve never had to use my martial arts to really protect myself i was always good enough without martial arts.

Now although i’ve never had to really use my martial arts to defend myself i have used them to try them out.I also try to spar semi- full contact with no gloves or padding as much as possiable.Which is usually once or twice a week against my sifu and sihing.I prefer it be against my sihing because it’s painful against sifu.

Most ppl when they spar do nothing but kickboxing.So how are you using kung fu when you kickbox? When we spar we’re using tiger claws,snakefist strikes,monkey and mantis fist,chin na,etc…We’re trying our techniques as close as possiable to attack level. I’m not saying that no one’s getting hurt ,but we try to limit it as much as possiable.Also most ppl just wanna learn kung fu they’re not really putting in the time and devotion it takes to be good at fighting.My sifu teaches us for free yet there’s still only three of us learning.

" Why"

Because ppl quit when they see how hard we have to train and feel the pain of trying to do a proper horse stance for 1 hr.My bestfriend is one of the three of us learning from sifu and he has’nt been to class in months.He ask about it everyday and has me show him what we’re learning ,but he’s scared to go because sifu is going to work him hard.Sifu is very hard but one of the greatest ppl you’ll ever know.I look to him as a second father in every sense of the word.Infact he and i talk about things my father does’nt even know about me.

Back to my point sorry guy’s/gals

I see post about kung fu taking yrs to be able to fight with very good and not being effective in fights. “Bull Puckie” You can defend yourself with 1 weeks training in kung fu.“If” you train and practice like you’re supposed to.Most ppl i was one of them don’t train or practice like they’re supposed to.You kinda walk thru the motions half a$$ and expect it to work like magic someday when you need it .“Good Luck” because you’re going to need it when you try that technique.

There’s no style of kung fu that takes yrs to be able to fight with that’s a myth and nonsense.Even Tai Chi can be used in combat if you’re trained how to from the start.So many ppl overlook the basics trying to learn Monkey Style,Drunken Boxing,and any style they saw jet li use in his last movie.The more you learn kung fu you see you already had it in your basics it just has a different twist.I for the longest time wanted to learn monkey style now that i’ve learned some i see i’d already learned half of it ,but just did’nt have my eyes open to it.The more advanced stuff you learn you notice you already knew it from your basics.Why do you think styles like Monkey,Drunken Monkey,Eight Drunken Immortals,Black Tiger,etc…Require you to have a strong foundation of the basics of kung fu?

Because if you don’t know and understand the basics these styles are of no use to you.Because they require the basics for them to work period!
Most of all you need a Great teacher not a good teacher!Because someone carries the title Sifu does’nt mean they’re able to teach it properly.It takes alot of understanding and patience to be able to break something down for everyone to see and understand.I found this out the hard way.Just because it was so clear in my eyes i thought my students were able to see it the sameway ,but some ppl don’t see things like you do.Some ppl see things from a whole different angle than the one you’re putting in their face.I did’nt have the patience i thought i had to work those type of problems out.

In closing if you don’t understand how to use your kung fu in combat then there’s a problem in 1 of 3 areas.

1.Either you’re doing something wrong(a)Not training properly or(b)Not paying enough attention to your sifu.

2.Your sifu is doing something wrong.(a) Not taking the time to explain or show technique properly or (b) Does’nt know how to show or explain technique properly.

3.A combonation of both 1 and 2 together in one form or another.

In alot of cases the sifu give the masses what they want. If they only want forms that’s what they’re given.That’s why many schools have closed door students or backroom students that no one outside of this click gets to see what they’re doing.Because sifu feels that these are the students that really want to do something with their training.

jeff :slight_smile:

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Nice post guy. My old 7* mantis sifu says he broke nearly every bone in his body training in China. Fortunately we have better equipment nowadays, but it goes to show you how REAL the training can be

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it’s not the kungfu, its the people sometimes.

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jmd161.

I go with case 1.

IME case 2 is rather rare outside the obvious McKwoons and KF Health farms.

What I am now saying I have heard mention often and even seen it.

Many Sifu wait for the Students to come to them with insights and new found understanding.
It is part of keeping certain things secret.

Only Students that have worked out certain details or reached certain understanding will be taught the next step.

In short the Sifu will show them glimpses from which the student has to learn to see the full picture.
This is also done to inner door students.

One other reason for this I think is that the way we are taught MA has been adjusted to teach more people at the same time. (i.e. start with forms not indiviudal techs and than combine them into the forms).

Also many Students don’t want to “eat bitter” or work on the 20% Kwoon 80% self-study split.

Either way it is up to the student to make sure he gets it.

Just my Opinion naturally.

5

So how are you using kung fu when you kickbox? When we spar we’re using tiger claws,snakefist strikes,monkey and mantis fist,chin na,etc…We’re trying our techniques as close as possiable to attack level.

This is where I believe your logic becomes flawed: While the kickboxer’s moves are spartan, he is practicing at full contact, full range of movement, full intention, and against a fully resisting opponent.

You with your monkey, mantis, crab claws cannot do this and never get to use the application of such tactics in combat under circumstances that are much closer to a real life situation.

Can you understand my perspective? I’d rather do a attack that I’ve practiced a 1000 times against a full contact opponent than an application that I’ve only practiced the mechanics of in a prescribed situation. And combat stress, fight or flight, and tunnel vision, haven’t even factored in yet.

Striking should be simple, anything more is too much.

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uh oh, I feel another forms argument coming on…

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ST00’s a real crusader, huh?

If it’s so bad, why do you hang around here trying to convert us all? Why not leave us in our ignorance?

8

red

I do not want to argue. I just want traditional guys to acknowledge the fact that full contact fighting has Amazing benefits over forms and that an open-minded CMA person should cut back on form work and engage in more contact fighting.

Trying to be diplomatic.

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that sounds reasonable to me ST00. I wouldn’t exclude forms work out totally, if not for anything else but to catalog a styles techniques, but I definitely agree they should be doing much much more contact work.

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When someone says something like “Most people, when they try to fight with their kungfu, just end up kickboxing” I don’t think they’re calling kickboxing an inferior art. While statements like this may display an ignorance of the art, seeing as how they liken kickboxing to the wild, untrained, swinging of arms and legs, they don’t mean that kickboxing is an inferior art, nor are they saying anything about the method in which actual kickboxers train. Am I wrong here?

Oh yeah…forms suck…wait a minute, I practice forms…doh! Sorry, I just got caught up in the whole spirit of the thing!

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While statements like this may display an ignorance of the art, seeing as how they liken kickboxing to the wild, untrained, swinging of arms and legs,

that is exactly the generalization that I see on this forum.

Ironically in fights (ex. immediately reminds me of the “masters” video floating around) that is exactly what you see from traditional students, who are unaccustomed to being struck by blows.

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All training should be cyclical.

You can’t leave any part of it out.

Forms to refine movements, Drills to refine further, in sparring you test them and with the knowledge derived from sparring you go back to refine the movement in the Forms & Drills.

Everything has it’s use and place in the TMA.

BUT if the guys don’t train their basics too than their combat skills will lack badly.
There is NO stage when one part of training is no longer needed or benefitial.

Just my view naturally.

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I agree with ST00 partly. I however have no more problems using actual kung fu vs kickboxing/san shou stuff. I have been able to do this by doing the following. LEARN THE BASICS..dont ever stop practicing the basics. If you only do forms, then do the first form until you realize how badass it is, and if it isnt, then switch to another style of fighting :wink: Then once you have some forms and you can tell right from left, start fighting san shou. All you have to do is get a mouthguard, a cup, some shin guards, and headgear. Enter the next MA tournemant near you that has sanshou and try your moves out. That will start to give you a good idea of what if feels like to have someone trying to take your head off, or throw you on it. If you dont like it, then start training with that newfound knowledge, rinse and repeat every so often to keep it real. If you dont want to train hard, then just admit that you are probably not going to use 90% of your kung fu in a real situation under pressure, and practice your basics until you can do them no problem on ice with your eyes closed (figuratively) and thats that…if you do want to get better, practice your forms, practice against resisting opponents, condition your weapons (feet, hands, forearms, shins, head, etc) and go back and fight someone that really wont be nice about it, either in your school or in a sanshou match or whatever every so often so that you dont delude yourself. Kung fu DOES have deadly techniques..but they take a long time to get developed, and I have always been told that they are deadly AFTER they already worked, ie..you dont count on it, but if it works, cool, you can stop beating on the guy if you want to, if not, just keep fighting and open him up for the next hit.

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ST00–True, it would be nice not to see that generalization anymore, but what I meant by my post was that when people say that they aren’t attacking kickboxing. They obviously don’t know anything about kickboxing, but the point they’re making has to do with kungfu people sucking a.ss, not with kickboxing being an inferior art form. But yeah, it’s a stupid generalization.

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Ok i was away so let me answer your post.

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
[B]So how are you using kung fu when you kickbox? When we spar we’re using tiger claws,snakefist strikes,monkey and mantis fist,chin na,etc…We’re trying our techniques as close as possiable to attack level.

This is where I believe your logic becomes flawed: While the kickboxer’s moves are spartan, he is practicing at full contact, full range of movement, full intention, and against a fully resisting opponent.

You with your monkey, mantis, crab claws cannot do this and never get to use the application of such tactics in combat under circumstances that are much closer to a real life situation.

Can you understand my perspective? I’d rather do a attack that I’ve practiced a 1000 times against a full contact opponent than an application that I’ve only practiced the mechanics of in a prescribed situation. And combat stress, fight or flight, and tunnel vision, haven’t even factored in yet.

Striking should be simple, anything more is too much. [/B]

ShaolinTiger,

Obviously you don’t feel comfortable with your training? so you must fall into one of my numbers listed above!I have no problems with kickboxing what i was stating is how do you use chin na in a fight if all you do is kick and box with gloves on?

You made my point for me!

That’s why most can’t use their kung fu because they never even try to.They kickbox so they never grasp how to use monkey claws or mantis hands in a fight.

jeff:)

16

Shaolin Tiger00

OK, heres the deal, I train forms for fun. I hit the bag to get a good workout, refine technique, etc. These techniques I gather from the forms I work. I drill, these drills are pulling the techniques out of the form I was just doing. Now, when sparring, (we do all sorts, which I am just starting to really get into again b/c of knee injuries and such) I take the techniques that I got first introduced to in form, worked on with “nonresisting” opponents in drills and such and try to apply them. Ok, from what I gather from the last few days is that you think that people focus too much on the first step, granted, some do, some also focus too much time ranting on the internet, some people do too much sparring (I’m going to get flamed for this one), some people do too much work. What is too much for you, may not be too much for me. My goal in cma is to be in good health, mentally, physically, etc. I do concider myself in bad health after I’ve gotten beaten up so what does that say, not much. People need to realize that forms aren’t the end all be all, some need to realize that some people need forms to practice, get in shape, and learn how to move. I personally don’t want to learn a movement by flailing and refining when someone is throwing punches at me.
Whatever man, some people like their kung fu in pjs, some like it buck naked, we get your point (or at least I do). I do see too many people trying to defend themselves when all that is going on is a difference in opinion. Some of us need to get past this and agree to disagree (its ok you do it all the time).
As far as seeing people just swinging, I know way too many cma people who don’t fight like this, yeah it happens to the best of us, but come on, take it for what it is. This doesn’t happen because they do forms too much.

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I love this shaolintiger00 guy!

He speaks the unwelcome words of truth.
Monkey claws, mantis hands - puh-leeeeeeeeeze!

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I don’t wanna come off wrong here.

There is nothing wrong with kickboxing i used to and still do it.

The problem i have is that too too too many traiditional ppl suck a$$!

taijiquan_student hit it right on the money when he said that.If you feel good about kickboxing great! i’m happy for you you should love what you are doing.I love my Black Tiger training it’s the hardest thing i’ve ever done ,but i love it none the less.

I’m talking about ppl who study kung fu and then say it does’nt work in combat.I know it does without a doubt.I’m stating some of my thoughts from what i’ve seen to why most ppl’s kung fu won’t work in combat that’s all.

I don’t wanna start a flame war or anything.I’m just showing you get out what you put in or maybe someone needs a different teacher to help them see it’s effectiveness.

Golden Arms ,

I think you got my point.

Master The Basics that’s the Hidden Secret To Kung Fu

jeff:)

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Why Kung Fu don’t work in combat?

I have the answer right here

http://www.anyboard.net/cgi-bin/anyboard.cgi/rec/royaldragon?cmd=get&cG=13332323&zu=31333232&v=2&gV=0&p=

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the term kung fu

covers too much crappy kung fu to be able to make a general statement like “kung fu works in self-defense”.
Some of it does and most of it doesn’t, sadly.