For all of the Southern Stylist out there who have been taught to use our stances and drill techniques constantly and spend countless hours training our stances. How do you find it when attempting to use stance and technique when sparring. I have found that a lot of the time sparring matches in our kwoon quickly turn into kickboxing mathes with a kung fu technique thrown in here and there. What are your experiences? What do you do to maintain proper Kung Fu methods and Tecnique when sparring? Thoughts?
Hi. What you’re describing sounds a lot like my ex school, and a lot of the other schools out there.
Only kickboxing fighting should be like kickboxing. Kung fu fighting should be dynamic, natural, and effective. While you need to use things like horse stance, bow and arrow stance, etc. for training, real kung fu will use fighting stances for actual fighting. Ask your sifu a little about the differences of training and combat. If he plays dumb, or doesnt know, I’d start looking for another sifu, because obviously he doesnt want to, or can’t teach you.
Good luck.
This question has been haunting the Kung Fu community for long long time. It will alway be asked again and again unless somebody or everybody does something about it. There was an article about the “Kickboxing Trap” and how to avoid it. It’s any Kung Fu system’s problem that its people Kickbox their way out instead of sticking to their own unique techniques. It is the stimuli, which the media’s package of martial sports, presented to the public and influenced the martial arts practitoners. Many believe that they are doing martial arts when in fact they are doing martial sports. As soon as you put on a pair of gloves and observe the rules and regulations of kickboxing or NHB, you get everything that comes with the territories including silly scoring tactics that serve no meaningful purpose but do magic to your ego. Doing Martial Arts meaning to check your ego at the door. Never take it with you while you are in training. You are in the Kwoon, Dojo, studio, or gym to find out who you are and what you are made of. True learning and true skill can come about only if this is understood and observed.
Good luck in finding a partner who is willing to practice with you not practice against you.
Mantis108
Contraria Sunt Complementa
Thanks for your repsonses guys. What experiences have you had with the “Kickboxing Syndrome”? Have you ever fallen into it? What did you do to get back on track? Umgoa!
For my first few years, I just used simple punching and kicking and a boxing stance. No real technique, no real method on how to train.
I’d recommend partner drills, step sparring, and gradually get into routine sparring. When you are comfortable with all the major types of attack and defense, move into free sparring.
Everytime you catch yourself jumping around, flailing yourself in offense or defense, correct yourself. Calm down. Work on things slowly and systematically. After you get good at it, put in speed, then start thinking about power.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mantis108:
There was an article about the “Kickboxing Trap” and how to avoid it. It’s any Kung Fu system’s problem that its people Kickbox their way out instead of sticking to their own unique techniques.
[/quote]
Frankly, I think this articles’ name should changed to “the sloppy brawling trap”. It all boils down to precision of technique. I use plenty of the techniques and concepts found in my form. But, it is always flowing and changing. One shouldn’t expect to perform, in application, exactly as the sequence of the form. Muscle memory is key. Most people that get caught in the “trap” still have not developed the reflex for doing the moves they learn in forms and other conditioning methods. I teach my students that the body, not the frontal lobe, chooses what to do in reaction to a movement. There are plenty of “kickboxers” out there that have very refined movement. And yes, the arguement posed from people like Sifu Ross, that they can perform thier moves from the form directly, can still be defined in the context of muscle memory. Once their bodies recognize the “shape” of the technique, that set of movements flows freely and fluidly. If you still have to “decide” if your going to do those particular movements then it’s too late.
Hmmm…indeed- using real kung fu when sparring. You aare correct, Sir. Us Suth’n folk do spand a great deeal of tam on ahh staances 'n technique 'n stuff, but truly..do not we awul??
To me, the trick is to go slow, incorporate your basics and make sure you use proper form as much as possible. This is where your teacher is invaluable. Not only do us Suth’n folk draw on ahh stances a great deeal, we also adhere to a specific philosophy that is interwoven throughout our practise and application. To do one without the other is to forsake the very kinfolk that sired our first suckl’n pups.
It’s hard work to use proper stances effectively. But ya’ll know what? That’s one of the great many reeasons why kung fu is kung fu…and quite distinctive from our blue coat Nuth’ners. Know whats I talk’n 'bout?
Oh hell, what are you doing to me? Now I can’t get the warden from cool hand luke out of my head.
Warden: “WHAT we have he’a is failiuh to communicate.”
[This message has been edited by SifuAbel (edited 08-27-2000).]
You run one time, you got yourself a set of chains. You run twice, you got yourself two sets. You ain’t gonna need no third set 'cause you’re gonna get your mind right. And I mean RIGHT.
Take a good look at Luke. Cool Hand Luke?
You know what would be a great idea? Have “the man with no eyes” stand at the back of your class to make sure you’re doing horse stance, hahaha.
(cool hand luke inside joke)
A lot of times, learning to use kung fu in sparring is not a straight line to improvement. As I started out in karate as a boy, my initial years in kung fu meant I sparred with karate. My very first kung fu sifu did not teach sparring, so when he was gone some of us would don protective gear and go full-out; it was basically chaos with lots of injuries.
Usually, systems that emphasize close-quarter sensitivity a lot in fighting will learn to internalize the strategies more quickly, such as Wing Chun, etc. I find it takes longer to accustom oneself to strategies/skills of a system that begins at long or medium range. In such a case, when one’s ego is getting bruised, it’s easy to revert to a “kickboxing” type of fighting.
Besides forms and partner work, I find just doing “shadow-boxing” on my own, spontaneously, is a big help in making the skills second-nature. You must have pre-set application drills and various levels of sparring, too, but the shadow-boxing teaches you to move in your own style, and alter technique combinations at will. This helps to personalize your own way of fighting.
There are also good and bad days. Sometimes you find yourself concentrating too much on what you’re doing, instead of letting the techniques do what they’re supposed to: defend against and continually counter-hit the opponent. Because the combos rarely come out as practiced, ergo the shadow-boxing to learn to break up and recombine the moves.
Jim
Also, regarding the stances, your stances/footwork in sparring will not look exactly like they do in stance training or the forms. Your body will use the basic principle of the stances, but rarely do I find the back leg fully extend when doing a rear-hand punch, for example. The kung fu sparring is rarely as beautiful as a form, and as you know will not resemble the exact choreography of an old 1970s Shaw Brothers kung fu movie (there are those who think it has to).
The application of principles becomes the weapon, rather than perfect form (though one should not be “sloppy”).
Jim
Shouldn’t there only be real Kung Fu fighting and nothing else unless your art is sportive or for health and recreation. Your Kung Fu should reflect your forms and training period.
Using actual gung fu techniques in sparring is not an easily acquired skill. It usually begins with two person drills followed by two person forms. I agree with Jimbo in that shadow boxing will bring a spontaneous flow to the use of your techniques. In addition, you should find a partner you can trust so as to avoid the fear of injury. The removal of this element and a slow to moderate pace will allow you to bring out more real technique as opposed to relying simply on kick punch. Don’t be discourage if, as the pace quickens, you revert. It will take quite a bit of time and practice.
Kung fu has everything that kickboxing has. When you sparr using kung fu , it’s very important to use just the concept. If you are in a right front stance and someone punches your right rib, Don’t do an unnecessary block. Instead, drop your right elbow a tiny bit just enough so that the punch doesn’t get to you and return with the same hand. When you fight, you use a boxing stance.
A few remarks on the topic:
Have faith in what your teacher teaches you!
Those techniques comes from a time where peoples lives depended on them. Look at the lineage of your style, the style was perfected during many battles.
Do not start sparring to soon, first learn the sets and drills. (IMHO takes at least one year!, its kung fu).
And Mantis108 is wright: your training partner should understand we are all learning. So in free fight, attack slow(not full speed) so your partner has time to react on that the proper way. Also on purpose expose some part of your body, and see if your partner noticed and will attack this spot. This way you allow you partner to develop his skills.
Lu Chi-hwa
Hi Lu,
Bingo, well said.
Sifu Abel,
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>they can perform thier moves from the form directly, can still be defined in the context of muscle memory. Once their bodies recognize the “shape” of the technique, that set of movements flows freely and fluidly. If you still have to “decide” if your going to do those particular movements then it’s too late.
[/quote]
Indeed, how many of us ask this question? How well do we “know” our techniques. It is not only when and how to use them, but also when and why not to use them. In the beginning, they have no “shape” because the body haven’t learnt/memerized them. Then they have “shape” since the body registed them just like the way we learn a new volcabulary. Ultimately, they have no “shape” for they are now part of the nature movements just like when you are thursty you’ll pick up a cup of tea and drink it without much thoughts behind it. You would never do 10 moves nor would you muscle up all you strength before picking up the cup. You simply, naturally pick it up. It’s the Zen teaching “Normal Mind”! It is easy to blame failure on someone or something else. Like I always say there is no need to learn how to fight. Anyone can make a fist and fight for their lives or their rights. Just as anyone can kickbox his way out. Before learning the teaching, learn how to be taught. It is the depth of the knowledge of the techniques that makes a difference. To Kung Fu, or not to Kung Fu. The choice is yours.
Mantis108
Contraria Sunt Complementa
I can’t tell you how my students I seen come into our school and they can’t understand why the fighting doesn’t look like the movies or why doesn’t the sparring look like the forms.
Students must understand that the forms and stances therein build-up leg strength and introduce the student to various techniques. We try to explain to the students that in the forms the movements are very extended to show beauty of movement and to increase flexibility while at the same time build strength. In actual application the movements are shortened somewhat so that they are effective. A big extended sweeping punch might look nice in a form, but in the real world a good fighter will hit you two or three time before your extended punch lands. Also when gloves and other sparring gear is put on it can limit the techiques that you can do and this sometimes make sparring look less like the kung fu one practices.
My 2 cents. Peace.
Thank you all for your insights. Please keep them coming. Another thing that I’ve noticed in the hours I’ve spent sparring with my brothers is that it seems that no one ever wants to commit to a technique. I don’t neccessarily mean trying to kill your sparring partner but just throwing a full punch or kick or whatever. Along with with the kickboxing I see just choppy hit and run pot shot movements and when someone is withdrawing before the punch even makes contact with anything, it really makes it difficult to perform any defensive techniques. Things like wu dip jeung (butterfly palms) Is damn near impossible. Thoughts?
As you pointed out, those defensive techniques require a full commitment. Which is another big difference between sparring and fighting.