This has come up many times in my study and pactace of kungfu. I always wondered why some many KF guys learn a style and then fight like a kick boxer.
I think the main rason is that most people are afraid. I don’t mean in the same sense as a coward. I mean that they don’t trust their style. Here are a few points or causes of this:
Afraid that the a punch, block, or kick isn’t effective.
Afraid of looking a little silly is a fighting stance.
The kick boxing fighting stance is a basic stance that seems to cover all weak spots, feels comfortable, and seems logical.
A poorly skilled and/or fake teacher.
Poor sparring training or lack of.
These are just a few reasons. There are others. The one thing that we must remember is that kung fu is very old. It has lasted a long time. Back in the old days, you proved your kung fu by fighting. Many times it was a fight to the death. These styles really work. If a guy flapped his arms like a crane or hopped around like a monkey just for show in those days, that style’s legacy would stop there with his or her death. Forms and fighting techniques are the experience of the masters of by gone days. Remember that.
:mad:
why would you say that kf guys fight like kickboxers?
have you fought a lot of kf guys? I spar on a reg and I dont fight like one, maybe the guys you spar with dont know kf properly. People that I spar with in and out of my system dont fight like kickboxers…after all that would defeat the purpose of taking kf now wouldnt it.
KF Teachers are supposed to teach their stuidents san shou (free sparring) to get them to know how to use the kf…
Oh and the kickboxers stance doesnt cover all weak points trust me
Maybe its just viewing crappy schools, but I have seen loads of them with extended forms, formal 1-3 step sparring, sometimes with really good structure.
Then, as soon as they start sparring, it all goes out the window, and they hop about and kickbox each other. Seems that the sparring has no relation at all to any other part of the lesson.
And I even saw (and participated in) a wing chun sparring session like this. As soon as the gloves went on, they wanted to extend the distance, from close infighting range to kickboxing range, and didnt seem able to use any wingchun techniques. Hilarious.
Go figure, as you crazy Americans might say.
The chalice from the palace has the pellet with the poison,
The vessel with the pestle has the brew that is true!
the reason many kf guys fight like kickboxers is because they do point sparring and its much quicker to execute 3 jabs than it is to go from cat stance to front bow and arrow punch with a straight “karate style lunge punch” however i assure as soon as you drop the point sparring you realise those jabs dont do **** …
what do bin laden and general custer have in common???
They’re both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo
We spar with gloves on. trouble is, with gloves on you can’t do much except fight like a kickboxer - I wish we did trad sparring like in my old class.
Grifter - what were you saying about Sanshou, because I think that is effectively what our sparring is - albeit without the takedowns and other intricacies. (sp?)
Kung fu practitioners “degrade” to kickboxing because kickboxing is the most efficient way to strike, counter and block in the ring under standard standup rules. That’s the origin of kickboxing, efficiency and success in the stand up ring.
If you want to see real kickboxing, try watching K1.
I’ve trained and helped teach in schools in Italy, Hong Kong, China, Australia, with absoletule top masters and some excellent students, and invariably a good 80%+ reverted to…let’s call it semi-KF (kickboxing should not be a sinonim for not knowing what to do)…as soon as the free sparring starts. Why? My conclusions are mixed:
1 - lack of practice of combat applications of techniques shown during non-sparring class - this I believe is the BIG reason
2 - difficulty in transition from one technique to the next due also to 1, thus reverting to standing up straight
3 - visual conditioning done by watching a lifetime of boxing kickboxing van damme scoolyard fights just about any fighting we are exposed to in our lives does not resemble KF fighting
4 - ?
Maybe it just comes more “genetically natural”: just like if you had to throw a discus or weight it would not come natural to do all the spins etc, you would just pull your arm back and trow. But that does not mean that what comes natural is best: once you learn the spins, you perfect them, and you MAKE them natural, your discus will go much further.
Again I would say that if you’re putting gloves on to spar then there’s not really much point in trying to do Kungfu is there? When we spar at the end of a class, and everyone else puts fu(king 12oz gloves on there’s not much you can do except try and use the principles of combat you learn in your kungfu training and apply them with a few basic moves. Not much else I think you can do, like I say, with your hands covered.
I don’t think gloves are the problem, though I would prefer to spar without them (or using only wrist wrap or vale tudo type gloves). I think wall’s reasons are good.
Another reason is that a lot of schools just don’t teach kung fu to fight. They don’t even try to use kung fu when they spar, they just do something that resembles bad kickboxing.
In my experience, kung fu used to fight looks more or less how you’d expect it to - recognizable movements from the forms and basics - they just look sloppy because they’re happening against a live opponent.
