There has been alot of good input here on this common problem. I don’t think anyone mentioned “two man forms”. Most kung fu styles have at least a few two man sets which are great for developing an understanding of timing and distance for combat. They can also be useful for understanding how your style can work in a real combat situation. Of course, two man sets are pre-arranged so there is no element of surprise, and it is choreographed, so two man sets may look more like a kung fu movie than real life, but it serves a good example of how your style should look in sparring- how the blocks you learn are used, how to attack with your techniques, the footwork and stances in a mobile situation etc.
Are there rules to sparring? I was at one of my bros kung fu classes and they guys just looked like they rang into ech other and threw punches like a mad man.
One thing I have learned over the years of studying Kung Fu (both Northern and Southern) - many students trying to use their Kung Fu while sparring try to use ALL of their Kung Fu. They often try going through their forms in their head and say, “Oh, I can use this move here” or “that move there”. Being able to pull any random move out of a form on the fly is difficult to say the least and takes a long to be able to do effectively.
I have often found the following works:
Take a move or series of moves (say a single block followed by a specific strike and follow up). Practice those moves. Practice them over and over again. When sparring, of course you will want to try other things but always return to that move. Use it over and over again until you can do it without thinking (Don’t forget, while sparring, you are with your training brothers. You do not have to worry over getting hit. What you need to worry over is training your Kung Fu. So do these moves not worrying over the strike which lands). After a while, that move or series of moves will become part of you. YOu will be able to do it and do it well when you need it, any time you need it. At that point, take it and put it in your pocket as part of your Kung Fu Arsenal then pick another set of moves and start over again. Again, after a while of concentrating on a specific series of moves you can take that as well and place it in your pocket and let it join your arsenal.
Over time you will find that there are quite a few moves which you can do effectively but a core which are your signature which are simply outstanding.
To those Sifu’s out there (and others senior to me) please correct me if I’m wrong but though you know the forms of your systems and teach all of the forms, there are simply moves not suited to you. Some moves you like or use or rely on far more than others and some which you would simply not use (due to complexity or whatever).
So don’t try to use just any move in a form to block an incoming kick - pick a specific move and ALWAYS use that move to block those incoming kicks until you do it without thinking THEN move on to another move to block incoming kicks.
Whyzyrd: Great post. I do agree. Many of us have “pet moves” that we have developed for one reason or another. Yet at the same time, the nature of the sparring sometimes makes it very difficult to develop other types of techniques. I have si dai’s that sprint around the ring at times when we’re sparring and what technique do you use on a runner?
Whatever you do in sparring, remember that each technique that you execute in your forms was put there for a reason. Those low horse stances are low for their low center of gravity, not just strength training…in fighting/sparring they may not be the picture-perfect thighs parallel to the ground horse stances, but they should still be low, as with all the other stances meant to be that way. All the techniques should just be less precise, in that i mean, you aren’t going to concentrate on how tight your tiger claw is, but it will still be a tiger claw. Nother thing is to start slow…this can not be emphasized enough (ths same goes for your form) concentrate on what you are doing and the power and energy behind each technique. Once you have developed that at a certain speed, go a little faster. Also remember that kung fu is unique in that its moves are supposed to flow into one another, which is one of the first things i learned reeading from bruce lee’s ‘the philosophical art of gung fu’. One more thing is that when in a sparring match and you start to lose control and slip into the “oh, to heck with everything, i’m gonna clock this mofo” attitude, you are losing self-control, which is a vital aspect to kung fu. When that starts to happen, stop your attack if it isn’t too late, back up a step and reflect upon what you are doing. You may not belong in the match in the first place. This is me and that’s my story.
Oh, and by the way, this is a grea topic, and I have enjoyed reading the previous posts.
Applying kung fu techniques in sparring is possible but quite difficult when using boxing gloves. I find that when I practice my kung fu techniques without any obstruction to be easier and more realistic. The problem is seriously hurting someone so we resort to gloves for safety.
A student is introduced to numberous hand and kicking techniques. Naturally, the student would use only a few techniques as you want the fight to end quickly and using only you most comfortable and strong techniques.
It is a gradual process and it will come by practicing the theory in the form and sparring slowly to see how it’s applied before speed becoming a factor in sparring. Hope that helps.
amifree is 100% correct. Those moves are not just “flowery” movements for training.
And everyone has said it, go slow but do keep going Just doing forms is not going to teach you to use your skills in fighting. Two man forms and drills are the best way to drive it home.
Also, when you do the forms, do you do them at deeper levels as you grow? The forms teach you where you are vulnerable and where you are strong. How to flow energy from one move to the next. How to apply the techniques in different situations and most important, what is the TCMA concept behind the technique.
On top of muscle memory, it’s sensitivity. Especially Southern fist, the bridge is your key. It paraphrase Bruce Lee, “When my he expands, I contract, When he contracts, I expand, I don’t tell the fist to hit, it hits all on it’s own.”
But one thing he believed which I believe too, is that the best way to improve your fighting or sparring is to fight or spar. If the techniques in your forms really work, practice them for sparring or combat, and then give it a try. Some techniques might work and some might not.
2 man forms to me don’t seem practical for fighting, my style’s 2 man forms are more for arm conditioning and for demonstrations. Bruce Lee believed if you are training forms and bag techniques you are “doing something about fighting” not really fighting.
If you want to see if the techniques work try them, Kickboxing came from Kung Fu and we all have the same legs and arms, and fighting most of time is not a pretty sight.
great advices, guys. I think I should do some more sparring. I haven’t had too much time lately.
btw. what is this thing about techniques in forms not working in combat? I’ve learned 4 hand forms on my CLF-career this far and I haven’t found a single technique that would not work in reality slightly modified and with a lot of practice
anything works if you practice hard enough, have a decent body cordination. sure. it takes a lot of time, but people who practice traditional CMA usually are aware of this and accept it.
no, I won’t get killed in the streets, because I can do some mean-ass kickboxing because of my CMA experience.
I’m not sure if you were responding to my post but I never said two man forms was the end all. They are part of the steps. When people say wait a year before you spar, it’s not a year of forms only. And even after your first year the way you do your forms should evolve or have many different ways of doing the same form.
As for sparring, the big caveat is, if you don’t train two man drills, you will only use the most basic techniques because your body isn’t used to doing the advance stuff.
the easiest thing is to stay out of range and them bounce in with punch or kick combination and bounce back out. This doesn’t take advantage of bridging or the opponents energies.
On defense, the easiest is to do a direct block or run. This doesn’t easily set you up to counter attack.
If you don’t train the advance techniques with a partner, it’s very difficult to get past the basics because you won’t have faith in the advance.
I spar people using Northern Shaolin Boxing- which means that I look sort of like a Thai Boxer with elbows in, open palms, groundfighting/grappling, and spin moves.
For ring sparring where you can’t run away and are dealing with an opponent who plays hit and run while maintaining a good cover, I adopt this posture because it keeps myself covered while being able to throw the offensive techniques I get from my sets.
I practice my fighting sets knowing that many of my moves are exaggerations for purposes of display or exercise. In reality, the long flowing moves of Northern Shaolin can be shrunken to barely perceptible motions useful against opponents.
When I fight against other kung fu practitioners, they seem to adopt this type of stance (elbows in, palms out, knees can come up at will) because of their own set training and because it’s the easiest way to keep onself covered in this situation.
Now “real” fighting with intent to maim - that’s a whole different story.
Remember this too; all of you who have been quoting Bruce Lee so much; Bruce Lee’s JKD was a lot different from what he learned from Yip Man.
I forgot to emphasize two-man forms…you should have mastered these or at least know them to the point of being second nature, because only after that should you begin sparring. Now if you are a JKD practicioner, then your style, apparently, calls for something else.
I must say that most sifus out there won’t let their students spar untill they have become proficient in the style. I don’t believe in putting the gloves on after a few months (I first attended a TKD school which did that), sparring should be the tail end of your training. Only after you have learned the virtue in patience and respect towards others (including your opponent) should you be allowed to fight//spar. If you can’t spar without losisng patience or bearing in mind keeping humble, then you haven’t been getting everything you should have out of your training.
amifree:
I agree with you in theory but in the real world I respectfully disagree with you. My Sifu (and I agree with him totally) believes you should spar within a couple of months of joining a kwoon. No, one can’t master anytechnique in a couple of months. No one may not even understand the theories and the applications of the style. But in the world we live in today, who has time to wait a year or two to learn how to fight. Maybe you’re not fighting with Kung Fu, but the typical thug won’t give you a pass untill you perfect your form. I did start the thread and I am upset that the nature of sparring sometimes leads to brawling as opposed to polished techniques. But at the same time IMHO, an important part of training in whatever martial discipline one chooses is developing a fighting spirit. If you don’t have it, you won’t be able to take or deliver punishment.
Hmmm… Seems to me that I fight in fairly good kungfu form, usually in a horse-like stance, turned almost sideways to my opponent, or in a false leg stance. I get a little bit more tense when sparring, and I can, if I am not careful, slip into that boxing stance. It really helps me to remember that I do not have to move so much when my opponent is bouncing around, trying to psyche me out. I do much better when I conserve my energy, and wait for the right moment. I keep my hands open (in snake or tiger form), and this helps me remember that I know Kung-fu, as well as allowing me to use more techniques. Our school is heavily centered on grabbing techniques, and moving to the outside of the punch, rather than blocking on the inside (leaving yourself vunerable to the other hand). This grabbing technique is hard to carry out in sparring, because it involves a lot of body movement. It’s kind of like one of those video games (Tekken, etc) where you have tons of really cool moves, but you usually end up just trying to punch your way to victory, because you don’t have the time to roll the joystick 3 times and hit two buttons at the right moment. The only cure for this apparent lack of time is to increase your awareness of the world around you. If you practice long enough, the world seems to move a bit slower than it used to, and you can find lots of room to carry out complex procedures.
The biggest enemies in a street situation are your lack of awareness, and your fear. If you aren’t afraid, you will have no problem standing on one leg with a crane technique if it is the right thing to do. Oh sure, some people will just box their way out, and that’s fine, but know that anything is possible with the right mindset.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sei ping dai ma: What do you do differently when you want to maim?[/quote]
It depends on the context, of course.
I’ll keep this discussion confined to the worst-case scenario - that I’m forced to fight in a life-or-death scenario because somebody in the vicinity is going to lose their life if I don’t do something about it then and there.
My techniques actually become MORE like those in the forms.
Strikes are performed with longer motions and more classical hand postures, I step through my kicks, I use more leg motions and footwork, I utilize whatever weapons I can (pens, keys, etc. . .), and I let “incidental” contact go.
By “incidental” contact, I mean things like punches and kicks that don’t fully connect. I’m willing to wade through a weak punch to get to my opponent in a real life situation - not so in “sparring”, though.
As far as grappling goes, I become a lot more “dirty”.
I haven’t been exposed to this type of situation for it (kudos to my training for teaching me how to prevent them), but one can train for them daily.
For me, a half-baked attempt toward self-preservation is better than no attempt at all.
Just doing forms is not going to teach you to use your skills in fighting. Two man forms and drills are the best way to drive it home.