Originally posted by Royal Dragon
[B]One, I haven’t seen many “Old Master’s” fight footage.
Two, What little I did see was total crap.
I want to see stuff like I have seen live. Then, I want to put it up on my site so every one can enjoy it [/B]
There’s been some posts of footage of masters here. Do a search.
Originally posted by Brad
Maybe, maybe not, lol. The only way to prove it though, would be to go out and win in competition(not lose to any “sloppy looking” guys) and look good at the same time
I think that’s actually true though - real fighting isn’t pretty. RD’s likely not gonna find any real fight footage of such.
Yan Gaofei told me that he has two (I think) guys with no martial arts training. And he wants to train them in taijiquan so they can actually use pure taiji in san shou tournaments. I don’t know if they’ll do well though. But we shall see.
He’d be better of fighting them in Kuo Shou. The open finger gloves would allow more Taijiness to be used.
Also, I am not looking for “Pretty”, I am looking for fundemental accuracy. I want to see common footwork, rooting, sinking and authentic useage. I’m not looking for a modern Whu Shu form being used in the ring.
So far, everything I have seen uses Western Boxing footwork, or modern San Shou.
I was hoping to find some Kuo Shou clips by now. Or even some Shui Chiao clips.
I would reprimand my students for fighting like this clip. I know it is easy to watch a clip and criticize, but how many times to you have to get hit by a consistently placed, timed, and telegraphed right sidekick? Anyway…
In a box somewhere, I have some footage of some special ops training I gave back in the early 90s. It is not competitive, but instead involves full speed attacks with and without weapons, with single and multiple attackers. The attackers are using various styles or lack thereof, but the defenders are using good kung fu.
These are not very entertaining or interesting to watch as each scenario lasts only a few seconds, and it is very difficult to see what is going on - partially due to bad photography, partially due to the fact that it moves really quickly and some of it involves some fairly subtle energy transferrence.
I considered using them for training examples once, but they weren’t terribly useful unless you knew exactly what was going on. I can try to dig them up and see if I can find someone to make digital clips out of them.
Incidentally, I somewhat agree with assessment that all styles will pretty much look the same once you adapt them to the ring. I also somewhat disagree. A couple of points:
A well-rounded artist will tend to modify his/her style to adapt to his/her opponent.
One of the reasons it is beneficial to practice “conventional” kung fu techniques (circular/curving motions, elaborate footwork, etc.), is that when you are have to pull them out in a challenging environment (self-defnse or competition against someone with approximately the same skill), you can condense the techniques and apply the same principles on a much smaller scale with similar effect. I tell my students, “Big and bold for practice, fast and tight for defense, relaxed for everything.”
This second point is often ignored by CMAists. The principle, “high kicks for practice, low kicks for combat”, is widely known and accepted. Yet, there are two common mistakes made when a practitioner tries to apply tradition CMA to a full-speed, unrehearsed conflict.
One common mistake is that the practitioner tries to execute techniques per form with full motion. What frequently happens is that the person forgets that he/she can switch up mid-technique since he/she is so focused on executing the full technique. This all takes too long and is too inflexible/adaptive. So, the practitioner get frustrated and soon resorts to mistake #2.
Another common mistake is that the practitioner throws the training out the window. Frequently, they take on a kickboxing-like approach. Before the hate-mail starts, I am not saying that kickboxing is an inferior approach. I am just saying that if you take a kickboxing approach, you should be trained in kickboxing.
Here’s the rub. The ability to apply traditional KF in full-speed combat takes a long time to master. Often people begin KF training, abandon it, take up another style (BJJ, kickboxing, etc), and become proficient in the second style. Typically, this takes less time than it would to just become proficient in KF in the first place.
This misleads people into believing that they have to abandon KF training to become proficient in KF. Does this sound familiar? “Well, I was getting my butt kicked when I was in KF, but when I took up [style X] I could finally [do whatever].”
So why would anyone take up KF then, if one could become proficient in another style in half the time? Well, it is difficult to answer that without being named “arrogant”, “elitist”, or a number of other cop-out labels popular here.
One reason, as I recently mentioned, we do it not despite the fact that it is difficult, but BECAUSE it is difficult. Other reasons (which fall under the “elitist” umbrella) involve depth of technique, longevity of abilities, aesthetics, etc.
Hold your style vs style posts. That’s not what this is about. This is an attempt to discuss competitive KF, and why it is difficult to find “good” competitive KF footage. In short, I am asserting that “good” full-speed KF doesn’t often look like “good” KF. Once you break techniques down and micro-analyze the motions, you will find good underlying KF principles, but to the specatator, often it just looks like arms and legs flying - particularly if both practitioners are highly skilled. When both practitioners are skilled, techniques are switching up and moving so quickly that each competitor is stretched very thin, and tiny adjustments make or break success.
The clip here in question involves two phenomena I have mentioned here. Perry is doing kickboxing (or similar) - and poorly I might add. He is linear, predictable, and slow. Fortunately for him, his opponent is making a more serious mistake. He is conflicted. He is trying to hold onto his traditional training, yet has not completely resolved how to do so in a competitive environment. Also, he appears intimidated, which doesn’t help.
That’s my assessment.
-Brent
Thanks for the assesment. I think if you look close, you can see the difference in the footwork. The Kick Boxers tend to be up on thier toes and bouce alot. Traditional Kung fu is weigted evenly on the 9 points of the foot. It is more “Sunk in” for lack of a better word. It has great mobility, but if you look close you see the correct stances being performed, even if they are higher up. Power is issued in the Chinese way. A boxer/Kick Boxer moves totally differnent.
I have been searching the site looking for links to good clips. all I can find, are application demos, and forms.
At this point, if I can find GOOD Kung Fu in actual free fighting, even if it’s bad photagraphy, I’ll use it.
Originally posted by Kumkuat
Yan Gaofei told me that he has two (I think) guys with no martial arts training. And he wants to train them in taijiquan so they can actually use pure taiji in san shou tournaments. I don’t know if they’ll do well though. But we shall see.
William CC Chen’s son was doing excellent in san shou. His daughter is vicious in push hands.
Originally posted by Royal Dragon
[B]He’d be better of fighting them in Kuo Shou. The open finger gloves would allow more Taijiness to be used.
Also, I am not looking for “Pretty”, I am looking for fundemental accuracy. I want to see common footwork, rooting, sinking and authentic useage. I’m not looking for a modern Whu Shu form being used in the ring.
So far, everything I have seen uses Western Boxing footwork, or modern San Shou.
I was hoping to find some Kuo Shou clips by now. Or even some Shui Chiao clips. [/B]
boxing footwork probably works better in the ring. Also - talk to WD. My last post was about Chen’s son fighting in san shou - WD’s got a tape of it.
So WD, can you digitze that film? If so, can you E-mail it to me? Or at least some fight footage about 2 minutes in length?
I have to get my sound and video card, so I can do this stuff.
Originally posted by BrentCarey
I would reprimand my students for fighting like this clip. I know it is easy to watch a clip and criticize, but how many times to you have to get hit by a consistently placed, timed, and telegraphed right sidekick? Anyway…
that sidekick is his trademark attack. He nails person after person with it.
[b]- One of the reasons it is beneficial to practice “conventional” kung fu techniques (circular/curving motions, elaborate footwork, etc.), is that when you are have to pull them out in a challenging environment (self-defnse or competition against someone with approximately the same skill), you can condense the techniques and apply the same principles on a much smaller scale with similar effect. I tell my students, “Big and bold for practice, fast and tight for defense, relaxed for everything.”
This second point is often ignored by CMAists. The principle, “high kicks for practice, low kicks for combat”, is widely known and accepted. Yet, there are two common mistakes made when a practitioner tries to apply tradition CMA to a full-speed, unrehearsed conflict.
One common mistake is that the practitioner tries to execute techniques per form with full motion. What frequently happens is that the person forgets that he/she can switch up mid-technique since he/she is so focused on executing the full technique. This all takes too long and is too inflexible/adaptive. So, the practitioner get frustrated and soon resorts to mistake #2.
Another common mistake is that the practitioner throws the training out the window. Frequently, they take on a kickboxing-like approach. Before the hate-mail starts, I am not saying that kickboxing is an inferior approach. I am just saying that if you take a kickboxing approach, you should be trained in kickboxing.[/b]
If that happens, I would say that’s more of a training issue than anything. Either that person wasn’t trained right, or that person hasn’t trained long enough. However, the “big and bold in practice, small and tight in self defense” thing can be quite confusing to someone who only has class experience. When he gets into an altercation, he’s going to react how he’s trained - he’s going to use big and bold movements.
[b]Here’s the rub. The ability to apply traditional KF in full-speed combat takes a long time to master. Often people begin KF training, abandon it, take up another style (BJJ, kickboxing, etc), and become proficient in the second style. Typically, this takes less time than it would to just become proficient in KF in the first place.
This misleads people into believing that they have to abandon KF training to become proficient in KF. Does this sound familiar? “Well, I was getting my butt kicked when I was in KF, but when I took up [style X] I could finally [do whatever].”[/b]
That’s the thing that always gets me… yes it takes longer by design, but should it? If I’ve only been training for 6 months and have to defend myself, I want to be confident that I can defend myself. I’m willing to bet that CMA training could be modified so that a person could learn how to fight in a shorter time.
One reason, as I recently mentioned, we do it not despite the fact that it is difficult, but BECAUSE it is difficult. Other reasons (which fall under the “elitist” umbrella) involve depth of technique, longevity of abilities, aesthetics, etc.
I dunno… I know several CMA that would jump ship after a few weeks of muay thai where I was taking it. sport fighters get into the arts they get into BECAUSE they’re difficult. compare the avg sport fighter’s regimen with the avg “traditional” regimen. As for KF including “involved depth of technique, longevity of abilities, aesthetics, etc.”, that sounds like grappling to me. the technique is VERY in depth, and possibilities are endless. My judo coach is 73 and I can’t beat him when I try my hardest - there’s plenty of longevity of ability as long as you train right. And aesthetically, watching a great technical move while grappling is so aesthetic it can be just plain pretty. If you don’t know what you’re looking at though, of course it wouldn’t.
Hold your style vs style posts. That’s not what this is about. This is an attempt to discuss competitive KF, and why it is difficult to find “good” competitive KF footage. In short, I am asserting that “good” full-speed KF doesn’t often look like “good” KF.
Agreed.
Once you break techniques down and micro-analyze the motions, you will find good underlying KF principles, but to the specatator, often it just looks like arms and legs flying - particularly if both practitioners are highly skilled. When both practitioners are skilled, techniques are switching up and moving so quickly that each competitor is stretched very thin, and tiny adjustments make or break success.
Once again, sounds like grappling.
The clip here in question involves two phenomena I have mentioned here. Perry is doing kickboxing (or similar) - and poorly I might add. He is linear, predictable, and slow.
And he’s held several championship titles…he’s doing something right.
That’s the thing that always gets me… yes it takes longer by design, but should it? If I’ve only been training for 6 months and have to defend myself, I want to be confident that I can defend myself. I’m willing to bet that CMA training could be modified so that a person could learn how to fight in a shorter time.
Reply]
The Northern Tai tzu is like this. It takes a long time to build the foundation to really fight well wiht it. that’s why the Southern system wa developed. it’s short, Kwick and easy to learn. PLUS, it starts building fundementals that are foundational for the Northern tai tzu. You can learn the entire Southern system in about 3 months. In 3 years, you should be prettty darn close to mastering it if you train full time. I don’t see any reason why you couldn’t master it in 6 on the parttime after work program (Max 4 hours @ 5 days)
The Northern, is much more sophistcated. You can get much further with it than you can the Southern, but it takes longer to get it working reliably. Training full time, it’s going to take 10 years to fully master it. On a parttime after work scedual where you put in a max of 3-4 hours 5 days a week, your looking at more like 20.
That is why many tai tzu schools teach the Southern first, and THEN the Northern.
I don’t think Perry has any footwork at all.. he’s got a side kick and a long leg… BORING. The albert pope character exhibited more variety and finesse. I would consider Pope to be more of a rounded fighter.
That’s a BIG difference. What all does the northern have that the southen doesn’t?
That’s a BIG difference. What all does the northern have that the southen doesn’t?
Reply]
Everything. The Southern is a super sweet quick easy to learn get you fighting RIGHT NOW!!! kind of a system. It has 6 rediculosly short forms that are really more like hand & footwork drills than forms. It’s primary function is to develop the basic structure, mechanics, footwork and a simple effective no nonsense fighting stratigy. Generally, it’s a primer for the Monkey, and the main form Yi Lu is some what Monkey like. I don’t see how anyone can’t get really good at it in 3 years.
Footwork is basic forward and backward shuffle, there is a basic turn that allows you to side step out and cut back in, and some leap back escapeing kind’a footwork (Identical to some of the Kuntao Myong taught me). It uses basic block and punches, almost Karate like, and some simple traps, locks, grab escapes and throws. The whole system is about as caveman simple as it gets (for a Chinese art that is). The main technique in the first form is kind of like a “grab thier head and whallop’em one” type of thing. It’s totally brutish.
The Northern is much more extensive with about a dozen medium to long forms in the core system, and maybe as much as 70 all together if you combine various lineages into one. Some systems have 300+ move forms in them. Most of mine are 32-72, and I have one or two that are as much as 150-200. I have only learned one Northern form called Yi Lu which is about 70-80 moves long, the rest are documented only.
The style contains about every kind of functional Long Fist technique there is, and very little flash. That’s what I like about the old Long fist styles, they are very functional. Tai tzu was developed by an Emperor that conquered five warring states and united them into a single dynasty. His attitude of function over form is still paramount in the style today.
What’s the difference between Kuo Shou and San Shou? What’s Lei Tai? Did Chen’s son look like he was doing taiji? At least being relaxed, sinking, sticking, etc.,?
Kuo Shu I think has a bit better format than San Shou. It allows open finger gloves for example.
A Letai is the traditional rasied platform that the fight takes place on.
Check out this Kuo Shuo page for more info
Originally posted by Kumkuat
What’s the difference between Kuo Shou and San Shou? What’s Lei Tai? Did Chen’s son look like he was doing taiji? At least being relaxed, sinking, sticking, etc.,?
he was relaxed and sinking. I haven’t seen the tape in about a year though… WD can tell you more about it.
RD
I found this a little while ago, not exactly full force but enough to give an idea of how Bagua can be used in combat.
http://www.energyarts.com./hires/bagua/fighting/fightmov.html
more sophisticated is not necessarily better. when you get that adrenaline dump you experience a loss of fine motor control.
I’d take simple and effective over more sophisticated the vast majority of the time.
I don’t think Perry has any footwork at all.. he’s got a side kick and a long leg… BORING. The albert pope character exhibited more variety and finesse. I would consider Pope to be more of a rounded fighter.
LOL you are so wrong.
Go look at more Marvin Perry fights (there are lots on the internet). He has an impresively wide range of technique and really outstanding ability. His take downs are really very good,but I can not coment on his clinch work as he tends to put his oponent down as soon as they get close totaly missing the clinch phase.
He may or may not have good foot work but you need to remember that foot work is a transitionsl thing - just a means to an end and I feel that Perrys foot work is just to fast and well developed for u to see it.