Kickboxing: Kung fu and Karate at advanced levels?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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[b]Last Saturday, me and some friends decided to do a little free sparring in the backyard, with pads and such. All of us are instructor grade and pretty advanced in our respective styles. What struck me when we began free-sparring, was that the stuff we were doing looked almost identical to kickboxing, except for some trapping and throws.

I’ve witnessed this before at the Sabaki challenge, a full-contact karate tournament held by some Karate school who’s name I forget at the moment…

Anyway, seeing blackbelts in Shotokan, Wada Ryu, Goju, and other karate styles degenerate from wonderful pre-set demonstrations complete with spectacular throws, and reverse punch knockdowns, to sloppy, slappy, kicking fests once the full contact tournament begins is rather depressing.

I can’t really name a Kung Fu counterpart, except for Chinese kickboxers, but they’re kickboxers, and they look a lot better than what I saw at the various Sabaki challenges.

So is Kickboxing the pinnacle of arts like Karate and/or Kung Fu? In the end, when it comes to fighting with these styles, are we to become nothing more than sloppy looking kickboxers? Is all the forms, kata, etc. we learned for nothing?[/b]

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Yup, Kung Fu sux, better go MMA.

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Yeah, your wasting your time. Go do some kickboxing.

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Kickboxing is the real street lethal.

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Last Saturday, me and some friends decided to do a little free sparring in the backyard, with pads and such. All of us are instructor grade and pretty advanced in our respective styles. What struck me when we began free-sparring, was that the stuff we were doing looked almost identical to kickboxing, except for some trapping and throws.

I’ve witnessed this before at the Sabaki challenge, a full-contact karate tournament held by some Karate school who’s name I forget at the moment…

Anyway, seeing blackbelts in Shotokan, Wada Ryu, Goju, and other karate styles degenerate from wonderful pre-set demonstrations complete with spectacular throws, and reverse punch knockdowns, to sloppy, slappy, kicking fests once the full contact tournament begins is rather depressing.

I can’t really name a Kung Fu counterpart, except for Chinese kickboxers, but they’re kickboxers, and they look a lot better than what I saw at the various Sabaki challenges.

So is Kickboxing the pinnacle of arts like Karate and/or Kung Fu? In the end, when it comes to fighting with these styles, are we to become nothing more than sloppy looking kickboxers? Is all the forms, kata, etc. we learned for nothing?

Chinese kickboxing is san shou.
There are rules that are applied, but it is essentially that.

The pinnacle of your art form is in your ability to apply what you have been developing through your practice.
If you are unable to apply more advanced techniques then you need to practice more and of course test you ability more.

Kickboxing is not “sloppy, slappy, kicking fests” in it’s competition level form. Certainly, an artform developed for martial application should not be designed to be that either.

Forms contain keys, keys open doors and in martial arts, those doors lead to understanding. From this understanding as a holistic being (body/mind/essence) you can attain Kungfu.

so don’'t worry, just keep practicing. :wink:

cheers

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Kickboxing shmickboxing. Everyone knows only Muy Thai crossed with Bjj is effective.

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OK here’s my serious answer.

A lot of people end up fighting with a kickboxing style because the techniques of kickboxing are among the simplest and most immediately and broadly useful striking techniques. People who have not trained their art enough, or who do not have the confidence to employ the principles of their art will rely on the simplest and most broadly useful techniques - hence looking like kickboxing. There is nothing wrong with this except that if you want to fight so that you look like you are fighting with your art rather than with kickboxing, then it means you need to practice fighting with your art more and build your confidence in that manner of fighting.

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I would also like to add that when you are ingaged in a friendly sparring match the tendency is to size up your opponent and engage in a friendly exchange of mostly straight punches and none threatening kicks. San sau is a little different. I have yet to attend a kung fu tournement where the sparring does not look like kickboxing.

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Good Post, joedoe

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Originally posted by monk weed
I would also like to add that when you are ingaged in a friendly sparring match the tendency is to size up your opponent and engage in a friendly exchange of mostly straight punches and none threatening kicks. San sau is a little different. I have yet to attend a kung fu tournement where the sparring does not look like kickboxing.

I don’t think I’d agree with that. When I spat, I don’t change my techniques, only the speed/strength that’s used, depending on how we are sparring.

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Thanks 7*. I like to occasionally contribute something to the forum other than the usual drivel I come up with :smiley:

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Re: Kickboxing: Kung fu and Karate at advanced levels?

Originally posted by ArrowFists
[B][b]

I can’t really name a Kung Fu counterpart, except for Chinese kickboxers, but they’re kickboxers, and they look a lot better than what I saw at the various Sabaki challenges.

[/b] [/B]

Go to kazaa and do a search for kyokushin. they’ve got some nice kicks - the roundhouse reminds me of the thai roundhouse, almost. I used to train with a japanese friend of mine who kicked the same way - he had some of the hardst strikes of anyone I’ve ever been hit by, and he was 5’5 and weighed 160 or so.

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[b]Ditto Monkweed. In every tournament I’ve been to where sparring is one of the events, I have yet to see someone lean down into a front stance, and block using a traditional karate block, or do a backstance and employ chambered had techniques.

I’d also like to thank those contributers who are being serious, and not acting like this is another thread that bashes traditional styles, that’s not my intention with this thread in the least. I’m simply asking why in competitions around the country, people can do their forms wonderfully, but when it comes time for sparring, the form shown in their katas are erased, and a kickboxing-looking stance, and fighting style are employed. I’ve seen it throughout Kung Fu and Karate, and throughout the ranks, from white to black belt/sash.

I’m simply asking why. Joedoe says that its a lack of training, and confidence in one’s style. Well if that’s the case, then we have a serious epidemic on our hands.

Kung Lek, I wasn’t calling kickboxing “sloppy, slappy, kickfests”. I was talking about the Sabaki challenge participants, and the style they were doing that they called “karate”.[/b]

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Arrowfists

The other thing to bear in mind (and this is speaking for kung fu - I don’t know much about karate) is that the protective gear worn often hampers the ability to use certain techniques. If you are wearing full boxing gloves, then you are pretty limited to what techniques you may use. I know MMA comps use open fingered gloves, but we are not talking about MMA comps here. And if the tournaments you are talking about use open fingered gloves, then you also have to look at the rules of competition to see what techniques are legal. Ultimately if the rules only allow you to kick and punch then you are limited to mostly kickboxing techniques aren’t you?

However, if none of this is the case, then yes you have a serious epidemic on your hands :slight_smile:

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Re: Re: Kickboxing: Kung fu and Karate at advanced levels?

Originally posted by SevenStar
[B]

Go to kazaa and do a search for kyokushin. they’ve got some nice kicks - the roundhouse reminds me of the thai roundhouse, almost. I used to train with a japanese friend of mine who kicked the same way - he had some of the hardst strikes of anyone I’ve ever been hit by, and he was 5’5 and weighed 160 or so. [/B]

As a student of Shotokan karate for over a decade, I know all about Kyokushin. In fact, our school is a fusion of Shotokan and Kyokushin karate.

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Originally posted by ArrowFists
[B][color=firebrick]Ditto Monkweed. In every tournament I’ve been to where sparring is one of the events, I have yet to see someone lean down into a front stance, and block using a traditional karate block, or do a backstance and employ chambered had techniques.

Stances are transitional. I wouldn’t drop into a deep front stance to fight either. chambered techniques in many cases represent the chambering hand grabbing and pulling - which you will not do in a match. However, you WILL have strikes coming at you fast nd furious. you will get knocked out with a low chamber.

I’m simply asking why in competitions around the country, people can do their forms wonderfully, but when it comes time for sparring, the form shown in their katas are erased, and a kickboxing-looking stance, and fighting style are employed. I’ve seen it throughout Kung Fu and Karate, and throughout the ranks, from white to black belt/sash.

Knowing how to do a form is one thing, knowing how to apply it is another. you have to understand the PRINCIPLE behind what you are doing. That applies to anything.

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Re: Re: Re: Kickboxing: Kung fu and Karate at advanced levels?

Originally posted by ArrowFists
[B]

As a student of Shotokan karate for over a decade, I know all about Kyokushin. In fact, our school is a fusion of Shotokan and Kyokushin karate. [/B]

cool, then you know what I’m talking about!

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Re: Arrowfists

Originally posted by joedoe
[B]The other thing to bear in mind (and this is speaking for kung fu - I don’t know much about karate) is that the protective gear worn often hampers the ability to use certain techniques. If you are wearing full boxing gloves, then you are pretty limited to what techniques you may use. I know MMA comps use open fingered gloves, but we are not talking about MMA comps here. And if the tournaments you are talking about use open fingered gloves, then you also have to look at the rules of competition to see what techniques are legal. Ultimately if the rules only allow you to kick and punch then you are limited to mostly kickboxing techniques aren’t you?

However, if none of this is the case, then yes you have a serious epidemic on your hands :slight_smile: [/B]

[b]Well that really can’t be helped, since so many of the millions of individuals who participate in karate, kung fu, or another martial art form are children or teenagers. I don’t think parents would appreciate their children coming home with black eyes, broken limbs, or worse. Every class I’ve assisted teaching in uses knuckle guards, helmets, and mouth guards during sparring sessions, or kumite as we in karate call it…

Advanced classes tend to lose the helmet and gloves, and just go for the mouth piece when it comes to full contact. However, I’d have to say that on a whole, punching and kicking feels rather weak, and totally devoid of power. I think that comes from the years of sparring w/ pads, and ridiculous point competitions seen in most MA tournaments around the country. The last point-based competition where I was one of the judges had a rule where throws, and grabs were allowed, and the participants wore open-handed gloves that could permit such an activity. Needless to say, all I say was sloppy technique, and really high, useless kicking.

I think we do have a big problem, and it does stem from the type of training that people are undergoing in dojos and kwoons around the country.[/b]

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Stances are transitional. I wouldn’t drop into a deep front stance to fight either. chambered techniques in many cases represent the chambering hand grabbing and pulling - which you will not do in a match. However, you WILL have strikes coming at you fast nd furious. you will get knocked out with a low chamber.

[b]I agree. However, I’ll take it a step further and say that the chambering of the hand for reverse punches, blocks or other such techniques are next to worthless. Maybe for throwing, but I’ve never seen chambered hand throws being employed in Aikido or Judo.

I did see someone do a reverse punch in a fight. However he was 6’6 and around 260 lbs. He could do almost anything to anyone and get away with it.[/b]

Knowing how to do a form is one thing, knowing how to apply it is another. you have to understand the PRINCIPLE behind what you are doing. That applies to anything.

I agree once again. I actually have a book about shotokan bunkai (applications) and it disects every form and shows how each move can be used in an encounter. The problem is that most people aren’t taught the applications to their kata, and frankly, I’ve never seen ANYONE break into a kata during a sparring competiton, or when someone’s coming to beat them down.

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I do probably 70% of my sparring without any protective gear - you just have to trust that your partner will maintain some degree of control and will not inflict too much damage on you. Having said that we usually don’t go full power if we are doing this.

Once you pull on gloves, your range of tachniques is limited and so while you can up the power you are limited on technique. I guess we need to find a middle ground.

So when you trained with your buddies, was it with or without protective gear? How do you think that might have affected the way you all fought?