low stances vs high stances

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
1

i want to hear differents oppinions about the stances execution .
i like make my stances very low . maybe , because for my hung gar trainning . we train in static sei ping ma , searching for resist more minutes every time . but i 'd note that is better for san sou make a low sei ping ma . you can rersist all low roundhouse kicks and is too dificult for you adversary to make you down with a sweep kick .
but in san sou the most people fight in a high kickboxing stance . like occidental boxing . so , you got to come up if you want strike his head .
i think high stance must got his adventages . so , how you addapts your stances and techniques in san sou , where your adversary have chest protection and you can’t use the 100 % of you traditional techniques .

i find choy lay fut very adaptable for san sou fighting but others styles with more grappling techniques are perjuiced in san sou competences .

2

rain

They both have there place in kung fu training.

strength training and mobility!

3

I’ll throw this into the mix.

How necessary do y’all think training stances (horse stance for example) for leg strength is, when you can just go down to the gym and pump out some squats?

I have heard people say train low and fight high. Why not train the way you are going to fight?

4

We train our stances, such as sai ping ma, and use our stances in the same way.

There are many who practise very low stances for conditioning purposes and then adopt a more higher (occidental boxing) kick-boxing stance for sparring. This allows for greater mobility, but is offset with a weak root- centre of gravity.

We use a very strict traditional approach to stance training and use. We train low and fight low. At the higher stages of our style, there is what could be called an ‘advanced’ stance (sai ping & ding ji ma) that allows for amazing root coupled with mobility most only achieve from the kickboxing stance. Utilizing these ‘advanced’ horses or stances also adds +40% power that is primarily derived from the ground up.

I teach a “no-stance” untilt he moment of contact or interaction, as everything up to that point is simply noise.

When fighting someone who is standing high or is taller? It’s all in the targeting and positioning of the interchange. If during contact I am directed in a certain manner, then I remain fluid and move with it. At this point, I might be in a higher stance, but more than likely only momentarily.

I personally believe the higher stance is simply poor form. There are only a few that can truely make it work to their advantage.

My question…what’s with the bouncing you see so often? Especially in Tae Kwon Do tournaments?

nospam.
:cool:

5

Mobility is the word, Wing Chun’s stances are for combat… It’s best to clarify particulars before matters become complicated.

Low stances or high stances, you could wind up overstating your case if you don’t take time to line up your points.

6

Originally posted by nospam
[B]

My question…what’s with the bouncing you see so often? Especially in Tae Kwon Do tournaments?

nospam.
:cool: [/B]

I can’t speak for everyone but i assume this is to confuse the opponent. People that aren’t very good/experienced will often do a little “bounce” before they kick - telling their opponent exactly what they’re about to do. If they rely heavily on kicks (as in Tae Kwon Do) then most of their moves become predictable and hence ineffective. Most people would say “learn to kick without bouncing before so you don’t signal your moves to your opponent” however some people are to lazy so they just bounce the whole time so you can’t tell when they’re going to kick. The same applies for some people when they want to throw a big punch (you’ll sometimes see it in boxing, or with those jumping been chui’s in CLF).

7

Here’s my two cents…

In the western conception of kung fu there is too much attention given to hitting the head.

San Shou is kind of a westernized version of kung fu in that it gives more points for hitting the head.

While the head is a good target it should really be your last target in terms of real combat.

The goal should always be to upset your opponents balance first and then strike. When an opponents root is upset then they are incapable of launching a counter attack. And it gives you opportunity to strike.

Watching my fellow students spar the other night I was struck by how little they used their legs or tried upset the other persons balance. Even though their legs were only inches apart.

They sat their trying to hit each other in the head while their legs went virtually unused.

In terms of conditioning the goal of chinese martial art is the opposite of Western boxing. Boxing has an upright position and focus is given to developing strength in the upper body.

In terms of real fighting it is essential to have strength in the lower body. While the upper body shouldn’t be neglected altogether it is definitely not the focus. This is why I’m not really that impressed by martial artists with a muscular upper body. I’m more impressed with solid footwork.

In terms of training you should maintain a low strong stance. In forms it can be a little higher. For free fighting a little bit higher.

I think the reason most people have trouble applying their forms in sparring is that they forget to attack the root and only go for the head.

Peace.

8

paul

weight training doesnt cut it when training a static horse stance for 30 minutes!

Ive had body builder and power lifters with huge legs come into my school and laugh at my guys, so i put down the challenge for them to do 10 minutes and they break after 5 minutes, why is this?

no internal strength and no mind control!!:slight_smile:

9

fiercest tiger,

Ok, why would I want to train a static horse for 30 minutes? I’ve done stuff like that before and always hated it sooo much.

Does it really give you functional leg strength? Does it help make your kicks stronger? I think lifting weights is probably better for that.

My current Sifu was just saying the other day that he thinks static stance training is old fashioned (here come the flames, heh). to be honest though on a couple of occasions he has made us endure the pain.

10

To each his own,

I think what everyone has said is pretty good. But here is how I personally feel:

Low stances increase strength and flexibility at the same time, I believe in a way weights and normal stretching couldn’t. But however, I weight train often, I even use weights while stance training, and that my friends really helped me alot.

My training in Chen Tai Chi has helped my stances alot too, but thats a different topic.

I do not favor low stances in fighting, unless I am going in or avoiding a take-down. We have had many people from other arts come into our school and fight in low stances who were pretty tuff, but were so imobile they just were a sitting target.

IMO (sparring or San Shou), when you do not attack the head (centerline), you do leave a opening that you might not want to sacrifice, so I train to use my legs in the manner Fu Pow mentioned, without having to use my eyes. The kicks go in low or mid level, setting up the hands.

The reason most of us fight like boxers is they are the ones evoluting the sport of fighting. The reason many martial artists fight that way is obvious. Where do you see traditional stances and movements in sport fighting? Even boxing has changed over the years, better technique, better training methods even better skill. I have seen some old footage of some top masters fighting in Taiwan in the '50’s, and they were supposebly the top of their styles, and frankly, I thought it was sad.

Not putting down what we all learn, I believe in traditional Kung Fu, and it has survived for so long. But face it, we are Kung Fu, we have to use what works. Just like Bruce Lee, he loved Muhammad Ali, and would immitate his movements. When we see good fighters fight, it is important to absorb it all in.

So unfortunately I have not seen anyone use low stances and traditional form like technique and be sucessfull, but that doesn’t mean it is not. I know are style is not exactly like kickboxing, in Clf we fight in a higher stance using many blitz-like punches, swing punches and come in from many different angles.

If any of you have friends who box, I recommend you spar with them, it’s fun, and you both will learn alot.

Good Post Rain, and I enjoyed everyone’s comments!

Joe

11

What most people said already can be grouped into the Chinese concept called “Tai-Yung”, which is roughly translated as “Systems and Applications”.

Systems: During training, start with high stance because it is easier to learn, work your way to low stance to build up strength and stability, then come back to high stance again to achieve dexterity and mobility. Add “Jarm Jong” or standing postures to help with your training. Repeat this process until you have achieved mastery of your techniques.

Applications: During fighting, use whatever that is natural and effective for the given situation. For example, use high stance when you have to move fast and use low stance when you have to take down.

“Tai” and “Yung”, high and low, you can’t have one without the other, they go together like Yin and Yang. It is not high stances VERSES low stances, it should be high stances AND low stances.

12

jthank for all replys . i think this would be a eternal good discusion . i want to mention a sad point i ever see in my country tournents . you ever see the forms competitors and the san sou fighters . the forms competitors show great trainning , flexibility and great control of every muscle , but you never can see them in san sou .
and , in the other hand , you see the san sou fighters , and see they are people maybe knows only one basic form , they are street strikers only . with a execution of a few punches techniques . but they can knock out anybody of the forms area .
i know the way to trainning is mixed the forms with the combat trainning . i try to train this way . but this is a sad reality i always see in competitions . i think maybe this happens because the instructor want to cover all areas in a competition and don’t train correctly his students . but this make the kung fu become more a sport that a martial art .
come back to the sparring topic , i think ono have to believe in his own style . in his blocks and punches . joe is right , if you train with different fighters from differents styles this help you a lot . you can see this way , what thecniques of you style work better for you . is a grat exchange for both fighters .

about static stance trainning

train in sei ping ma is not only make your legs work . is a spiritual exercise . you feel all your body is connected with the ground . is about become stronger . inside and outside .
we make the exercice with iron rings in our forearms . so you can make all your body works . is pretty good for debelop patience , discipline and superation .

13

. We have had many people from other arts come into our school and fight in low stances who were pretty tuff, but were so imobile they just were a sitting target.

Systems: During training, start with high stance because it is easier to learn, work your way to low stance to build up strength and stability, then come back to high stance again to achieve dexterity and mobility.

Good points. You definitely don’t want a “dead” stance while fighting. As Joseph pointed out it should be more dynamic and natural. However, when the target is ALWAYS the head the stance will be high. This was the point I was trying to make. Kung fu is a whole body art.

You gotta use whats closest to your opponent and maximize efficiency. To me fighting in the kung fu style means blocking here and there or striking here and there but my main goal should always be to rip my opponent off their stance.

For example, I could use Sao Choy as a punching technique. Or I could step in on my my opponent and use my Sao Choy in a “top down” way. Using the forearm, hitting on the neck and effectively knocking my opponent off his stance (and probably knocking him out).

The Chen Taiji way of doing the same thing would be to “help” him down to the ground.

The Hung Gar way would be to cross my opponent arms and then push them upwards.

In essence, although the technique is different the goal is the same.

In continuous type sparring, of course, none of this is allowed. So one reverts more to a boxing type strategy, because the rules refelect boxing rules.

Peace

14

..

fiercest tiger is right. weight training is bad when training for the type of strength you need in gongfu. stances train the whole legs, while weights only train big patches of muscle.

no matter how strong your legs are from weight training, you will probably have a difficult time sitting into your horse stance. in the old days, they trained for six months in horse stance before learning anything else. i’ve noticed that while my arms may be a little strong, it doesn’t matter a bit when you are standing in a static posture like golden bridge. the type of strength that gongfu requires comes from the whole body being connected together. bones, ligaments, tendons, muscles are all working together, nourished by qi.

15

paul

what does weight training dont give you that kung fu does when practising stances?

Training using a weighted bar during stance work is good for fusing you with the earth, through kidney one pressure point(bubbling well).

but only should you do this after you can hold normal horse for at least 20 minutes. Then walk the horse using weighted bar etc. dont have bar to heavy just light then start adding weight later.:slight_smile:

16

what does weight training dont give you that kung fu does when practising stances?

Is that some kind of Jedi mind trick? It confused me. :slight_smile:

I have never seen anyone use a weighted bar for stance training. interesting.

At my current school stances are taught and movement is taught, but not much time is spent on static postures. We don’t use low stances.

At a couple of previous schools holding deep stances was all the rage…Horse stance and others. A few years back I could hold a decent horse stance for 15-20 minutes. I’m just not really sure what the value of that training was to me today.

17

I have always found this particular topic to generate good debate and a coupla flames, ta boot!

Static and dynamic stance training incorporates different muscles. The key here is ‘use’- you can develop muscle mass and strength in the legs but in gung fu or in many sporting events, the way in which the muscle is used differs (different stresses and usually increased frequency of use).

I am not a follower of static stance training- for any reason besides the odd ‘let’s see who can hold it the longest’ for bragging rights, type deal. Holding a stance for longer than say 2 minutes does not fit into my definition of the word progressive training.

Boxing evolving? I guess so. Is that why most stand up and fight they way you do? I highly doubt it. You stand up because that is your best tool.

Like I said before, not many people can effecively use the stand-up posture. Here, I will give cudos to the boxers- they are the exception to the breakdown rule. Someone said the end result is the same- well no kidding! But we (most of us here) are Gung Fu, that alone separates us from the crowd. If you are not using what you are practising, in my NSHO- it aint GUNG FU! Guess from here we can open the traditional vs modern and post-modernist martial art styling debate. I’m game. It hasn’t been done for a while :slight_smile:

nospam.
:cool:

18

One point I have not seen mentioned regarding the benefits of stance training is that in the vast majority of athletics, including western boxing, the first thing to go is the legs. Stance training not only helps train you internally and externally, but builds a strong foundation of power and strength for life, if you keep it up. Having mobility/high stances as well as medium and low stances makes one more versatile.

As mentioned in an earlier post, low stance training trains flexibility at the same time as strength. Some thoughtless people will argue against holding a square horse stance by saying that if you try to face an opponent in combat by assuming a horse stance in front of them you’ll get killed. Well, duh! It was never meant in and of itself to be an en garde position.

It helps develop the ability to assume low positions when needed, stability when performing leg hooks, takedowns, etc.; hooking the foot and pressing the opponent’s knee while using the hands upstairs, and with other stances, forms a base for power development and generation. If you have the ability to manerver in low stances you can also learn to do so in higher positions; the opposite is not necessarily true.

Generally, the most ideal “kung fu build” would be somewhat like a pyramid, as opposed to an upside-down pyramid as in many western sports. Although supplemental weight training can be very good for lower and upper body.
Jim

19

paul

no jedi mind trick!lol

what does kung fu stances do for you? What is the real reason for standing long time and what does it have to do with chi kung?:wink:

20

hmm

Just a short obvious value becouse im to lazy to post a full argument for static stance training.

If you can force yourself to sit in stance for longer than your legs are capable of holding you. Do you not also think that your mind would then be strong enough to allow you to properly lead your will to your body?
ie its like the eating bitter to taste sweet idea.
If you can put yourself though this, you can put yourself though some of the other things you need to do to truely get good.
Static horse pales in comparison to dedicated tiger claw training, i know if i didnt have the will from the static horse i wouldnt have put myself though what im doing now.
It also pinchs all the nerves and meridans in your legs forcing you to lead your breath and energy into your legs to prevent cramping. The benifit of this is obvious, if you can do it with locked legs imagine how easy it is standing. The position also forces the breath to the abdomen which in turns adds more blood and wieght to that area making you more stable.
Static horse wont make your legs as strong as simply doing wieghted squats. However your mind will be as strong as a determined bull.