There will be Wing Chun Chi Sao competition, as well as Open Continuous Sparring and forms competitions that Wing Chun martial artist can pariticipate in. This announcement is only for those interested in tournament participation.
TOURNAMENT WEBSITE: www.5TigersChampionship.com
[QUOTE=Lindley;765056]There will be Wing Chun Chi Sao competition, as well as Open Continuous Sparring and forms competitions that Wing Chun martial artist can pariticipate in. This announcement is only for those interested in tournament participation.
TOURNAMENT WEBSITE: www.5TigersChampionship.com[/QUOTE]
[indent][i]International Wing Chun Chi Sao Competition Rules
[indent]OBJECTIVE: To display application of fighting qualities particular to southern short-rang styles, such as bridging, i.e., adhering to the opponents forearms, while delivering effective attacks and counter-attacks to precise body targets at close range.[/indent]
Level of Contact
[indent]Chi Sao shall be light contact and shall emphasize the control of technique and finesse and not the use of excessive force.[/indent]
Light Contact is defined as contact that causes no bruising or injury to the opponent and [SIZE=“5”]does not move the opponent[/SIZE] from a stable stance. Contact to the head should not cause the head towhip.
Excessive Force is defined as anything that is not light contact. For example:
[indent]A head strike that result in bleeding, whipping of the head and/or neck, bruising or swelling of the face.
Unreasonable force to the body, for example, a kick that moves an opponent from a stable or rooted stance.[/indent]
[/i][/indent]
(emphasis mine)
Regardless of anyone’s opinion of ChiSao as a competitive activity, if these are the rules and this stuff catches on strongly to the point of influencing the curriculum in the MoKwoon, there may very well be no hope for the future.
:rolleyes:
So if someone deliberately moves from their stance then the opponent loses? I think they need to revise their rules!
[QUOTE=Tom Kagan;765269][indent][i]International Wing Chun Chi Sao Competition Rules
[indent]OBJECTIVE: To display application of fighting qualities particular to southern short-rang styles, such as “bridging”, i.e., adhering to the opponent’s forearms, while delivering effective attacks and counter-attacks to precise body targets at close range.[/indent]
Level of Contact
[indent]Chi Sao shall be light contact and shall emphasize the control of technique and finesse and not the use of excessive force.[/indent]
Light Contact is defined as contact that causes no bruising or injury to the opponent and [SIZE=“5”]does not move the opponent[/SIZE] from a stable stance. Contact to the head should not cause the head towhip.
Excessive Force is defined as anything that is not light contact. For example:
[indent]A head strike that result in bleeding, whipping of the head and/or neck, bruising or swelling of the face.
Unreasonable force to the body, for example, a kick that moves an opponent from a stable or rooted stance.[/indent]
[/i][/indent]
(emphasis mine)
Regardless of anyone’s opinion of ChiSao as a competitive activity, if these are the rules and this stuff catches on strongly to the point of influencing the curriculum in the MoKwoon, there may very well be no hope for the future.
:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
I agree.
There are several techniques that I know would move a person from a ‘stable stance’ (providing timing, etc. are right) with out bruising or hurting the person.
I guess it would be from thier POV of what a stable stance is… controlled moving…
A good Lop or any action breaking the opponents bridge could result in having to move ones horse :rolleyes:
From what i read, i tend to like the idea they allow kicks in Chi Sao, as many schools ive visited in my area dont consider this an aspect of Chi Sao more Gor and Lux Sao components. (if ive read right ?)
Everyone,
Don’t get too caught up into the posted rules. I believe these are shown mostly for Insurance reasons. I say this because we generally discuss there how it is going to go and it seems to get better with more experience. With more participation, we have been able to adjust the tournament so that more skill can be demonstrated. I am usually a judge and moving someone is definitely par for the course. We are going to work hard on eliminating just “point scoring” and have the competitors show true “chi sao” ability - which includes control of the centerline, balance, overall sticking ability, and “legal” strikes (by legal means no cheap or ineffective shots). Sifu Derek Johnson (who runs the tournament) and Sifu Shannon Moore (who leads the Wing Chun) welcome more Sifu’s and competitors to help make this event better.
I couldn’t help but chuckle a bit at that too. Kicks aside, footwork should definetly be involved in chi sau. Disengaging the entire lower body amounts to exactly the jokes everyone makes about wing chun.
Lindley, I know you persoanlly. I definitely have full trust you’ll do your best to cajole the organization to run it properly.
[QUOTE=5Animals1Path;765451]I couldn’t help but chuckle a bit at that too. Kicks aside, footwork should definetly be involved in chi sau. Disengaging the entire lower body amounts to exactly the jokes everyone makes about wing chun.[/QUOTE]
While I don’t disagree with you, kicks and footwork isn’t the point I was trying to make.
My point is simple: The ability to unbalance someone cuts right to the very essence of ChiSao. If you strike someone and they don’t move, your strike was essentially worthless.
To codify not being able to unbalance someone (especially via a strike) right into the rules - like it’s a good thing - is just mind boggling.
[QUOTE=Tom Kagan;765471]My point is simple: The ability to unbalance someone cuts right to the very essence of ChiSao. If you strike someone and they don’t move, your strike was essentially worthless.
To codify not being able to unbalance someone (especially via a strike) right into the rules - like it’s a good thing - is just mind boggling.[/QUOTE]Tom,
I think you are right on the mark in both points. I’m not a fan of chi sao competitions in any case (it appears to be an oxymoron), but if you insist on having them they need to demonstate something other than then the shoving match they tend to devolve into. At least that’s how I see it.
Peace,
Bill
[QUOTE=Matrix;765630]Tom,
I think you are right on the mark in both points. I’m not a fan of chi sao competitions in any case (it appears to be an oxymoron), but if you insist on having them they need to demonstate something other than then the shoving match they tend to devolve into. At least that’s how I see it.
Peace,
Bill[/QUOTE]
ChiSao mutating into pseudo-sumo instead of devolving into something which ultimately resembles my kids playing Bang! Bang! You’re Dead! is infinitely more useful and practical in the grand scheme of fighting skills.
[I][INDENT]Bang! Bang! You’re Dead! is played like this:
“Got you!” - “Did not!” - “Did Too!” - “Did not!” - “Did Too!” - “Uh huh!” - “Uh uh!” - “DAD! He won’t play right!” - “Are so!” - “Are not!” - “She’s the one cheating!” - “Am not” - “Are so!”
[/INDENT][/I]
Sheesh. Where’s my Tylenol?
:rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Tom Kagan;765715]ChiSao mutating into pseudo-sumo instead of devolving into something which ultimately resembles my kids playing Bang! Bang! You’re Dead! is infinitely more useful and practical in the grand scheme of fighting skills. [/QUOTE]
I agree with the exception that I might say Moderately more useful, rather than infinitely, but I’m nit picking here. 
I think these things give Wing Chun the bad rap we often hear about.
Everyone,
I say this because we generally discuss there how it is going to go and it seems to get better with more experience. With more participation, we have been able to adjust the tournament so that more skill can be demonstrated.
This is true.
Tai Lik (Derek Johnson)
Is there one set of rules that all or most Wing Chun Sifus agree on, which could be used in competitions?
The rules we currently use were provided to our tournament as standard Chi Sao competition rules. Your advice here would be appreciated in order to improve the rules for the benefit of Chi Sao competitors.
The Wing Chun Sifus who have attended our tournament in the past have done a fantastic job running this division.
Respectfully,
Tai lik (Derek Johnson)
[QUOTE=Tai-Lik;767283]Is there one set of rules that all or most Wing Chun Sifus agree on, which could be used in competitions?
The rules we currently use were provided to our tournament as standard Chi Sao competition rules. Your advice here would be appreciated in order to improve the rules for the benefit of Chi Sao competitors.
The Wing Chun Sifus who have attended our tournament in the past have done a fantastic job running this division.
Respectfully,
Tai lik (Derek Johnson)[/QUOTE]
Regardless of people’s opinions on whether ChiSao competitions are a good idea, creating a competition out of it is a formidable task. It’s already difficult to get people to agree on what constitutes ChiSao or even get a common ground for rules to practice with each other. And, therein lies the problem.
Truthfully, ChiSao is not a very good vehicle to showcase characteristics of what good is Ving Tsun training. To be a showcase of the style, you would need to create a competition which has a clearer “winner” and “loser” when the skill levels and weight classess were evenly matched. This way, the result would be evident to most who look at a match objectively.
Off the top of my head:
two concentric circles, one two feet in diameter, the other five feet.
opponents start standing on the inner circle with hands touching in “JongSao”.
dispense with the “rolling” requirement.
clean strikes which knock down the opponent wins.
striking/unbalacing opponent so his/her two feet are outside outer ring while you remain inside of center ring wins.
occupying the inner ring for 25 seconds solely via throwing strikes at opponent is a win.
two clean throws where the opponent lands on his/her back wins
No kicking allowed unless one opponent controls the inner ring.
Pushing or grappling opponent out of outer ring counts for nothing.
Sacrifice throws count for nothing.
Any grabs must conclude with a throw or strike attempt within 3 seconds and release.
…
…
If this is beginning to sound like a SanShou match, it should. That’s the proper forum to showcase the result of Ving Tsun training, IMO. Still, I’m trying to give it a flavor and some quirks where training of the attributes/skills emphasized in Ving Tsun could be showcased more clearly and without creating too many “bad habits” in fighting.
I suppose another alternative would be to make “barstool” ChiSao into a competition where the first person to be unbalanced via strikes and forced to take a step would lose. (Shifting is allowed.)
Chi sao competitions are totally ridiculous and prove nothing. “And make sure that you don’t move someone from his stable stance.”
Gimme a break! :rolleyes: :eek:
Why not just go dancing instead?
Sparring is for competition, for Christ’s sake.
And leave the chi sao for the training classes.
If person A moves person B then how do you determine if person B’s stance was “stable”? LOL
Too confusing, how about no touch chi sao? :rolleyes:
I would think/hope that this venue is the exception and that most push hand and chi sao competitions do allow or encourage balance stealing and energy issuing..
Otherwise, I agree its like a fishing contest where you earn points for nibbles but are disqualified if you actually catch something…
Thanks for your comments and advice. First i should say that cooperation and participation in our chi sao division appears to be good. we’ve never had any problems and competitors continue to return each year. last year’s division attracted alot of attention in the gym. I think because of the excitement of the chi sao competitors and the obvious sense of brotherhood amongst them.
we are aware of the difficulties of running chi sao divisions in competitions. As Tom mentioned “It’s already difficult to get people to agree on what constitutes ChiSao or even get a common ground for rules to practice with each other.” Believe me, i’ve seen and heard the arguments from several of my Wing Chun friends. I’ve met Wing Chun Sifus who are for chi sao divisions and others who are not.
As you may have noticed, Chi Sao divisions are included in most tournaments around U.S. & europe. Even at the time when kung fu was being considered for the 2008 olympics, there was gossip about chi sao being presented as a division along with tai chi push hands. my point is that tournament promoters are continuing to promote Chi Sao Divisions because competitors are signing up for this division and that some people find it a necessary division.
We will continue to promote this division as long as chi sao competitors continue to show up as they have during the previous competitions.
By having this division we are recognizing Wing Chun and the unique skill of Chi Sao. i’m not a chi sao expert so i must defer to those who are experts in this field.
i’m definitely not here to debate whether or not chi sao should be used for competition or what constitutes real chi sao.
Bottom line is that we want to do the right thing. I know that we can’t please everyone, but your advice and comments have been interesting and appreciated.
respectfully
Tai Lik (Derek Johnson)
I think I will echo Tai Liks request and pose the question:
If you accepted to being the lead of the Wing Chun division at a tournament and ideally could do what YOU wanted for a Chi Sao competition, like (Sisuk) Tom Kagan, what would you like to see and what rules would you promote? Keeping in mind the insurance legalities.
[QUOTE=Tai-Lik;767959]Thanks for your comments and advice. First i should say that cooperation and participation in our chi sao division appears to be good. we’ve never had any problems and competitors continue to return each year. last year’s division attracted alot of attention in the gym. I think because of the excitement of the chi sao competitors and the obvious sense of brotherhood amongst them.
[/QUOTE]
I don’t think the issue is whether or not chi sao competitions are popular – lots of things are popular. Although, my view is this popularity isn’t a good thing for WCK (as a martial art).
we are aware of the difficulties of running chi sao divisions in competitions. As Tom mentioned “It’s already difficult to get people to agree on what constitutes ChiSao or even get a common ground for rules to practice with each other.” Believe me, i’ve seen and heard the arguments from several of my Wing Chun friends. I’ve met Wing Chun Sifus who are for chi sao divisions and others who are not.
As you may have noticed, Chi Sao divisions are included in most tournaments around U.S. & europe. Even at the time when kung fu was being considered for the 2008 olympics, there was gossip about chi sao being presented as a division along with tai chi push hands. my point is that tournament promoters are continuing to promote Chi Sao Divisions because competitors are signing up for this division and that some people find it a necessary division.
We will continue to promote this division as long as chi sao competitors continue to show up as they have during the previous competitions.
So as long as people want to participate in silly things, you will offer them silly things? Yeah, that does seem to be the TCMA motto.
By having this division we are recognizing Wing Chun and the unique skill of Chi Sao. i’m not a chi sao expert so i must defer to those who are experts in this field.
i’m definitely not here to debate whether or not chi sao should be used for competition or what constitutes real chi sao.
Chi sao isn’t a “unique skill” – it is a WCK exercise/drill. And while you may not be here to “whether or not chi sao should be used for competition or what constitutes real chi sao”, you might just want to think about those things before you promote something so silly. I’ve got an idea, why not hold SNT form competitions? Dan chi sao competitions? Lop sao competitions? Wall bag striking competitions? Chi gung competitions? Wooden dummy competitions? And give a prize to who has the “best” WCK uniform too!
Bottom line is that we want to do the right thing. I know that we can’t please everyone, but your advice and comments have been interesting and appreciated.
respectfully
Tai Lik (Derek Johnson)
If you are really concerned with doing the right thing, then do the right thing: stop promoting these silly competitions – and begin treating WCK as a martial art. Boxers don’t have heavy bag competitions, focus mitt competitions, jumping rope competitions, etc. – that would be silly. As silly as WCK having chi sao competitions. The usefulness and value in those things are not in their performance in themselves, but in whether and how they promote development in the fighting (boxing) skill. These competitions make a mockery of WCK as a martial art.
What I find is REALLY ‘silly’ is when people view chi sau as ONLY a training drill… as if it’s similar to hitting heavy bags, skipping rope, training the focus mitts, etc..
That’s a very narrow and limited view in my opinion, and probably stems from lack of experience/knowledge in WC and/or chi sau.
Plain and simple - WC is for fighting. It’s bridging platform called Chis Sau is for fighting, as is any other part of a fighting art. I think it can be used in a competition event, similar to how sparring is used in boxing. But to compare ‘chi sau’ to boxing is quite silly in itself. One of the big differences with Chi Sau (in a competition scenario), the inital starting position, facing and ranges are fixed (but they don’t remain there once the ‘fight starts’, to do this would be silly). And, with Chi Sau (in a competition scenario) you’re starting with contact and focusing on bridging strategies. Boxing doesn’t focus on bridging much, and does not really focus on touch sensitivity nor sticking. Yeah, but these are really just ‘silly things’…:rolleyes:
Might as well just give up WC alltogether and just focus on MMA…