i went to the great lakes kung fu championships. the chi sau was terrible. it looked more like sumo for skinny people. we did 1 minute defece, one minute offence, then one minute were we both attacked and defended. when i was attacking the people pushed me back, with their palms, since when is putting your hand on the other guys chest and pushing a defencive technique, or litteraly grabbing the guys elbows and shuving. it totally went against kung fu princples-never meet force with force, let alone wing chun principles. there was only one match that i saw good technique in, and both of those people didn’t push. i didn’t see one pak da, lop da, or trapping sequence. what do you think of my experience or have you had similar experiences?
Re: tournament chi sau
Originally posted by wingchunalex
i went to the great lakes kung fu championships. the chi sau was terrible. it looked more like sumo for skinny people. we did 1 minute defece, one minute offence, then one minute were we both attacked and defended. when i was attacking the people pushed me back, with their palms, since when is putting your hand on the other guys chest and pushing a defencive technique, or litteraly grabbing the guys elbows and shuving. it totally went against kung fu princples-never meet force with force, let alone wing chun principles. there was only one match that i saw good technique in, and both of those people didn’t push. i didn’t see one pak da, lop da, or trapping sequence. what do you think of my experience or have you had similar experiences?
Not having been there to see it, and not knowing the rules, I obviously I cannot speak to what people were doing (e.g., good wing chun, or wing chun at all). I confess I am not a fan of tournaments, as IMHE, the downsides outweigh the upsides in many regards. For better or worse, they are, however, potential learning opportunities, and your good questions raise some others.
Even if pushing isn’t the ultimate in defense (and I do not propose that it is), does it not indicate that the other guy was controlling your structure and center? If so, that would seem to indicate a vulnerability on your part, and a terrific learning opportunity.
Similarly with elbows. If he was able to use your elbows as a lever to control your center, move you back, or furthermore take the steam out of your attacks, didn’t he have advantage?
If the opponent was able to get his hand on your chest, no less long enough and soundly enough to push you back, could not that hand also reach you to strike? The fact that he may not have struck, does not negate your vulnerability to someone who might.
The Wing Chun that I learn and practice is not about chasing hands, so focus on the body rather than demonstration of hand techniques and combinations doesn’t sound weird to me.
Again, don’t know the rules of the tournament, the players, what they did or didn’t do, or even how much Wing Chun was or wasn’t involved, but assuming that tournament fighting might, in some universe, serve a higher purpose than trophies and ego, it sounds like you got some great feedback that you can use in your own learning and development. Regardless of how contrived the circumstances of the tournament were, seems like there could be some “real” figting lessons in there somewhere.
So who won?
Regards,
- Kathy Jo
Im also not a fan of those type of tournaments. The idea of defending and attacking separately is IMHO alien to the concepts of wing chun.
One of our WSL lineage guys got disqualified in the first few seconds of one of these competitions. He was told to defend, the chisau started, the other guy made a move, and our guy hit him in the face, deflecting his strike with his punching arm.
“What the h3ll are you doing?” the judge yelled. “You are supposed to be defending!”
Our guy looked unabashed. “That was my defence.”
That, to me, is one of the essences of WC.
david
Originally posted by Frank Exchange
Our guy looked unabashed. “That was my defence.”
Ha ha - great story, Frank. 
- kj
Not a fan of Chi Sao competition either, but IMHO WCK doesn’t talk about “not fighting force with force” but about not crashing force into force, or resisting with brutish force. WCK uses force against force in the classic sense of smart/intelligent force against dumb force (twice the results with half the effort). Soft force, yielding force, elastic force, etc. or applying force from superior/better position (apply force in the direction of the wind).
In any case, even if the other person isn’t doing WCK “right” or is doing it in a brutish fashion, “good” WCK should theoretically overcome it. So, at the end of the day, it shouldn’t be “I lost because that guy was using a lot of strength” but “Cool, it was so easy to win with that guy using so much strength” 8)
Rgds,
RR
This highlights one of the major problems of chi sao competitions.Different schools have different training methods and expect different things in a competition.Sumo Sao is the reason Nick Scrima removed Wc from the tourny he sponsers in St Pete.For 3 years in a row all anyone saw was sumo sao.
I understand your point Alex you expected defense yet got an attack to the chest.the question is what is defense in WC and what is meant be defense in a tourny.
The only person I know of the ever tied to get past this in a tourny setting was Phil Nearing in the Great Lakes tourny a few years ago.His solution was to have the san sao judges judge and they looked for clean strikes.This had the merit of being fair for everyone.However the other WC Sifus’ present strongly objected to having non WC people judge and using a clean strike as a judgement tool.After all WC is not a martial art and therefore we shouldnt be judged on how well we protect ourselves or attack our opponent.
I dont think there is a way to do a chisau tourny where everyone would be happy with the judging or the rules.While you should be able to deal with grabbing or pushing I think that by the time you reach this skill level in WC you are past the interest in tournements.
I am not a fan of chi sao “competitions” though I have judged some. But if one is alert one can learn something from every experience.
Great Lakes tourny
I went, I competed (got third) and I had a great time! This was the first one of these events I have entered and it was a blast.
Buddy Wu’s people were excelent (of course) and Sifu Bey had a lage compliment of excelent students and good sports. One of them even showed up afterwords to touch hands with us. I was unable to touch hands with any of the Cleveland Wing Chun people. Which was my lacking, as I have read many of the articles avalible online.
Who were you WCA? I was meaning to get with someone from your school to swap tapes if thats possible. More angles will allow all of us to learn more from this event. I have a friend who can digitize the tape I have, and I will post them (somewhere) asap. PM me or email me off list (seanwingchun@yahoo.com)
hunt1 - I was not there for this one but…
His solution was to have the san sao judges judge and they looked for clean strikes.This had the merit of being fair for everyone.However the other WC Sifus’ present strongly objected to having non WC people judge and using a clean strike as a judgement tool.
As well they should.
After all WC is not a martial art and therefore we shouldnt be judged on how well we protect ourselves or attack our opponent.
There is already a format for that, its free sparing. Chi Sau is a specific drill made to train a specific trait. In a “chi sau contest” you might look for stucture, root, sticking, maybe some “Gan geep ging” or other things that take a good WC sifu to see. While a forward wieghted right cross, or a duck and clinch may be good ideas, and clean strikes they have there place. That place is not in Chi Sau.
We were fortunate that we had a good cross sample of WC veiwpoints and ideas. If three out of four say they saw better Chi Sau in person A then person B (after a fairly small sample) then I acept that.
anyway I will post clips soon, i hope, I began writing this before class and he was not there, oh well maybe friday.
-SM
LMFAO! @ chi-sao competition. that sounds so gay. Why not frickin spar instead.
C’mon…atleast they are not rolling around on the ground with each other for 45 minutes-trying out bjj postures.
whisper in the wind
hey guys,
can someone list all the schools that participated???not just from ohio…b
Odder mensch-I do hope that you can post some pictures somewhere.
yeah me too
I just gave the tape to a friend that can tranfer it to CD, then i’ll have to find some web space to post it on.
I of course cannot post the whole thing, but I will try to show a few matchs.
WCA ,or any one else who was there, any requests? WCA you mentioned seeing one round with some good chi sau. Do you remeber who competed, what division, anything? Anyone want/ not want themselves shown?
If all goes smoothly, i’ll be able to post something in a few days.
Chi sao clips
Hey Oddermensch, I’m going to digitize the clips now. In the meantime, look for a website that you can upload the clips to. Perhaps, someone on this forum knows of a place that will host these clips?? I’m going to make the clips .mpg if .mov file is too big. Actually, I’ll make both just in case. See ya Friday.
Why not have wing chun tournament fighting instead of chi sao competion? Isn’t it a martial art? Chi sao competion sounds really really stupid, on par with stupid tai chi pushhands, point karate, and the macarana. Use it how it is intended. A-Duh!
Kungfu Cowboy, I think that Chi Sau is still an integral part of the system and can be a form of ‘sparring’. Like most tournemants it seems they have turned to showy stuff, like forms type work instead of actual fighting.
I for one would be happy to get into a Wing Chun fighting tourney, if they have them!
No, I agree that chi sau is an incredible tool for developing sensitivity, positioning, etc. But its just a step to the goal of using wing chun to fight. Offering both as tournament options is a good idea. There is the ability to showcase skill with chi sao; but its not the end result of what wing chun is designed for. Same with push hands, and maybe even point karate; but definitely not the macarana.
I am in 110% agreement with you KF cowboy! While Chi Sau may be our crown jewel, the art is for fighting and it should be used that way. It is the beginning of this process and will continue to serve to hone the fighting sensitivity but it is not the goal.
If any of your opinions differ from mine, and I know they wont on this forum since we are usually in agreement, I will destroy you.
I agree!!!
FIGHT!!!