chi sao competition test many things,-
- root
- cool head
- neutralization skill
- ability to hit and control the opponent
- body structure under pressure
I would prefer to watch syncronised swimming without bathing suits!
Nope. Chi Sao tests those things. What does that leave the competition to do? Feed egotism? Increase tension among factions? Allow judges to resort to fisticuffs? Create threads on message boards?
RR - “Feed egotism? Increase tension among factions? Allow judges to resort to fisticuffs?”
If that is what you get into. One could also treat it as a learning experience, why are the things I am doing not working like I
thought they would. why is that working better then this?
How about a getting together and sharing of knowledge, instead of closing your mind and starting an inter lineage war or rivalry, why not ask what we are doing differently and what makes it work so well. Wouldnt you agree that in this case everyone benefits and walks away “winning”?
RR - why do you come to this forum, serious question?
Dude, you don’t need a tournament for that, just any old get together. In fact, the tournament probably gets in the way more than it enables. Read previous comments. Organize a pic nik. Create an atmosphere where productive learning is possible. I’ve travelled to BC, Ohio, NY, LA and further to meet and Chi Sao with other WCK people. There were no rings, no pajamas, no competitive agendas, and no judging shenanigans, just WCK.
r5a - Why do you ask people why they come to this forum?
RR
RR - "Dude, you don’t need a tournament for that, just any old get together. In fact, the tournament probably gets in the way more than it enables. Read previous comments. Organize a pic nik. Create an atmosphere where productive learning is possible. I’ve travelled to BC, Ohio, NY, LA and further to meet and Chi Sao with other WCK people. There were no rings, no pajamas, no competitive agendas, and no judging shenanigans, just WCK. "
well picnics and such are fine but whats the difference really? If you are doing chi sao with people there or at a tournemant, other then you find out for sure whether your wingchun sucks or not… LOL! I wonder how many picnics the old timer used to organize in wingchun when they wanted to find out if what they got really works… I’m not training for ice cream socials and days at the park, its nice to hang out with freinds but seriously…
“r5a - Why do you ask people why they come to this forum?”
nice deflection :rolleyes: a classic
r5a - how many Chi Sao tournaments did the ‘old timers’ hold? And since they didn’t have access to modern technology, should we reconsider our use of these darn computers to?
What’s the difference? At a get-to-gether, its just you and your WCK. No excuses about rules or judges, no BS about rounds or time limits, no whining about bracketing or results. It’s just you, your WCK, and the chance to try hands and actually learn about the art, not about some promoter’s idea of what Chi Sao competition should be. Are other people watching you in a tournament a concern of yours? Because they watch at gatherings too. Sure, you don’t get the pretty medal, but you get to know how your cultivation is coming, and what everyone else is doing. But myself and others have said this before, which leads me to wonder if you reading these threads? Are you considering the opinions expressed by others of diverse backgrounds, locations, and experiences? Are you entertaining for a moment that through these experiences they might have formed an opinion that could prove valuable to you?
If not, I urge you to reread them (especially considering these seem so much at odds with a lot of your other opinions on WCK, which while presumptious and often un-PC, are pretty decent)
And it wasn’t a deflection, just the appropriate response for the question.
RR
(Wondering what r5a will think of these threads 5 or 10 years from now…)
RR - I have read and considered everything everyone has said, if you will notice I am the one who has agreed that yes picnicks, get togethers and such work, as well as UFC style tournemants or fighting in the streets for that matter, whatever flips your switch. I am the one NOT discounting the idea of testing my wingchun skills through chi sao so be fair here. dont accuse me of being close minded when it isnt an issue. I agree that ANY of these things can be beneficial on many levels, including talking here on this forum ;). You can learn from any environment. I think that it is good for those who like a little competition, it can still be constructive and doesnt have to be negative.
r5a - Fair enough, then you don’t see any downside to Chi Sao tournaments?
RR
Downside?
Such as: Ingraining rules in your normally free and flowing reactions?..(I assume here!) In other words; Looking at the finger pointing at the moon instead of the moon?..(Poetic!)
So redboy’s wasted many an electron on other threads putting down ring fighting, then, because his instructor/love interest decides to enter students a chi sao tournament, suddenly it’s all wonderful and we’re all d0rks for not travelling hundreds or thousands of miles to enter “walking the walk instead of talking the talk”?
Is “hypocrisy” in YOUR vocabulary?
I wonder how many MORE threads redboy can start on this subject?
I said on the other thread that this is OK provided you don’t try to make it into more than it is. IMO it’s an interesting curiosity and diversion from REAL sportfighting competition, and REAL WC training.
I’m certainly not going to be rushing up to the “Cleveland Chi Sao champion” and asking for an autograph.
dont accuse me of being close minded when it isnt an issue
Must be time to change my sig.
tournament chi sao…
I think the previous (and ongoing thread) proves Rene’s point that tournaments bring out the worst in people and do more to create rivalries, thick egos, etc. For example, people question the results and people from the schools that performed well go all out to defend the legitimacy of those results.
That said, I have competed in a chi sao tournament, and sent students to another as well. As a result, I can tell you that they generally do NOT reflect the quality of someone’s chi sao, let alone the quality of their WC. Generally speaking, they devolve into flailing/shoving matches. And they tend to be incredibly biased based on who is judging; and everyone always rationalizes their win or loss. It would be far better to enter a sparring division and see if you can work your WC against someone trying to beat your head in, and where results are generally less in question.
As RR says, picnics and other gatherings on a non-competitive basis tend to be far more rewarding (though people STILL rationalize their good/poor performances relative to others) in terms of getting to know new people, feeling different hands, etc.
btw…
r5a, have you ever competed in a chi sao tournament? I think it is hilariously funny and ironic how much you promoted the last one, and apparently didn’t turn up. In any case, if you have never competed, then how do you draw your aforementioned conclusions:
> chi sao competition test many things,-
> - root
> - cool head
> - neutralization skill
> - ability to hit and control the opponent
> - body structure under pressure
Re: btw…
Originally posted by aelward
I think it is hilariously funny and ironic how much you promoted the last one, and apparently didn’t turn up.
If that is so …
Then it’s even more ironic and ridiculous when he makes veiled accusations about the rest of us lacking dedication and guts for not entering ourselves. I live the other side of the Pacific ocean from him, but I gather that pitiful excuse for non-attendance is not good enough.
Now who’s not “walking the walk, just talking the talk?”
RR - I think a thing can be what you make it. If you want to make a chi sao tournemant, or any other tournemant a negative experience then you probably will. But if you extract the “negative attitude” factor from it then what downsides are there?
Anerlich, you are slowing down my freind, I have never posted anything putting down ring fighting. I dont think UFC or any other so called reality fighting venue is any closer to real fighting then anything else, but other then that I have never spoken bad about it. But thanks for playing I have some wonderful parting gifts for you…
Aelward
“Generally speaking, they devolve into flailing/shoving matches.”
Sounds like an issue of level of competence in the participants to me.
“in terms of getting to know new people”
its a nice sentiment but I didnt realize that competitions were supposed to be social venues as well?
“I think it is hilariously funny and ironic how much you promoted the last one, and apparently didn’t turn up”
I find it hilariously funny and ironic that I posted the topic up for those who were interested, and your assumption that I was going was false. I dont know how your school works but we do not go to tournemants until we have been told we are ready. If I am not ready then I am not ready and I have no problem waiting. As for the second question thats not so funny but common sense to anyone with good wingchun skill.
Anerlich - “Then it’s even more ironic and ridiculous when he makes veiled accusations about the rest of us lacking dedication and guts for not entering ourselves”
Your assumptions are tiring and your not so veiled flames are boring. I have, again, not accused anyone of lacking dedication for not going. I have argued that they have their place, but again thank you for playing, please come again.
Rules
My Chi Sau isn’t good enough to enter a competition, but even if they were I’d give it a miss.
Some of the rules were…
Not Permitted:
- Punching, elbow, or chopping at the opponent’s head or neck
- Wild, swinging punches which show a lack of ``bridging"
- Kicking to the opponent’s groin area or to any part of his or her legs
The head and neck are prime targets in my book - I wouldn’t want to eliminate them. And wild swinging punches might not be the WC way… but even bad techniqes have their place. Kicking is my secret weapon in chi sau 
Other than those reasons, I liked what Rene had to say on the subject. I think it’s more productive to meet a bunch of friends in the park and chi sau without rules, refs, rings etc.
And hey!
Not permitted…
- Talking back disrespectfully to any official
- Using foul language or gestures toward anyone present during the competition
These are the only two reasons to turn up and ‘watch’ any competition 
As I said, I’ve competed in judo and point Karate, and never had a problem with it since the arts had evolved to have sport as their focus (which is something I hope never happens to WCK). I also attended the first Chi Sao competition in Toronto organized by the CCKSF some 10 years back, and it gave the Taiji Tuishou competiton a run for its money as “best shoving match of the year” (and like bad pro-wrestling, they even had one of the competitors try to jump the host )
Maybe I’m crazy, though. Maybe there should be Wing Chun Olympics with Saam Gok Ma 100m, WCK kick ball, short-punch board breaking, Chi Sao matches (par terre optional ;), SLT marathons, and a pole/knife bi-athalon. Least ways it would attract away all the trendy types and give the rest of us some breathing space in the training room…
RR
B&B - You can’t eliminate head strikes, it leads to people who have absolutely no ability to defend their heads. Maybe for beginners, but IMHO, since WCK uses short power, it should be no problem at all for anyone with skill to touch a partner on the head (or anywhere else) and just not faat ging.
If they’re relying on speed or power for their WCK, maybe there will be a problem, but then they probably shouldn’t be interacting with others freely yet. And if they’ve been doing it a while and can’t Chi Sao without hurting somebody, they’re incompetent, deliberately out to hurt people, or need to invest in a little loss to bring the skill out.
JMHO
RR - I did a few karate point sparring tourneys way back in high school and had a lot of fun.
I still dont think there is anything wrong with the competition chi sao tourneys, its not a sport fighting competition, and yes the rules suck but all tourneys have rules. theres nothing wrong with an organized format for testing your ability. Its about skill and control and testing that in a competitive environment where those skills can be pushed. of course there are more rigorous ways, open tourneys, etc… and less structured places, picnics, etc, but there is no reason why they cant be taken as seriously as any of these others.
Tournament rules
I got this quote from another discussion about SanShou; not sure who the author or title of the book are, but I think it has some bearing on our discussion (though I don’t necessarily agree with all of it):
“Sport applications of combative systems, such as competitive taekwondo, karate-do, and judo, are not martial arts. Putting a combative system in the competitive arena requires an array of to be placed on it, constraining its maneuvers and detrimentally modifying its technical application. In time, as “players” are trained in how to work within the rules to best win the game, the system evolves to fit the framework of those rules. What is effective in the constrained, competitive environment is osften worthless in the no-holds-barred world of actual combat, and what is effective in com bat, being illegal in sport, gradually fades from the training program and is lost.”
Basically, the idea is that competitors tailor their method to suit the rules; and if those rules are of a different format from what you are used to training, then you are NOT testing your ability. For example:
> 5. Kicking to the opponent’s groin area or to any part of his or
> her legs
Which implies that you CAN kick above the waist. The tournament I entered in DID allow kicks ABOVE the waist-- something that my lineage frowns upon. The guy who won the tournament basically did so on repeated double-lap sao w/stomach kick-- which if you are not allowed to use stop kicks (i.e, a kick to any part of your opponent’s legs), it is not exactly the easiest thing to counter.
Another rule was the ring size-- get pushed out of the ring, and you lose points. Well, most of the competitors were trying to push their opponent’s out of the ring-- it devolved into a sumo competition, but without the cool techniques that sumo players use.
Other people have already criticized the illegality of headshots.
Another rule from different chi sao tournament I went to: “No mandhandling your opponent.” At this one, a really big guy manhandled someone from his own school and was judged to be the victor. When he manhandled someone from the judge’s school in the next round, though, he lost. Lots of consistency there… not to mention that a Wing Chun person should optimize his physical advantages: if you are bigger and stronger, then use your size and strength.
That said, r5a’s assumption that chi sao tournaments are good for testing your skill are ludicrous, unless you define your skill by the rules set forth in tournament. and if you do define your skill this way, I have a doubt that your Wing Chun will be very effective. (btw r5a, the “you” here is not specifically you, per se, just the general “you,” meaning everyone).