Improving Chi sao tournaments

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

Just finsihed attending and demoing and judging at Golden Eage Tournament that took place here in Chicago. And I had some thoughts on how to improve the chi sao tournaments of the future. Marty was the head guy to spearhead this event, and here are the rules that we used for yesterdays chi sao tournament.

1 minute each round

Each contestant gets to show off their attack and then their defense. For the 1st and 2nd round. The 3rd round is a freefor all of attacking and blocking.

Now I believe this is my 4th chi sao tournament that I’ve seen and the 1st one I’ve judged. And, basically the result of which is all the same. Thus, for future events I think this should be a plan to implement to improve the chi sao tournaments.

1st, the problem with the 1st 2 rounds, of showing off ones attacking skills and ones blocking skills, is the match ends up looking like a sumo match. And believe me I taped the chi sao, and I might as well have thrown rice, and they might as well have worn the sumo thongs. Thus, there really is no way for people in the 1st 2 rounds to demonstrate their skill of attackings. Its just a mess. So, what I was thinking is that each contestant, have 10 attacks. I picked 10 from out of the blue, but it should cover roughly a minute, I figure.

In other words, contestant 1 has 10 attacks, of anything that he wants to do. He throws the first attack, and either his opponent blocks it or miss. If he hits, he scores. And then they end up rolling again, and he gets his 2nd attack. By doing it this way, you can see clearly the attacks, and clearly the blocks. There’s no doubt in my mind peopole in the wing chun line and outside would be able to make more sense of what the hell we were doing in these tournament.

Thus, the 1st 2 rounds each contestant then would be able to show of their skill of blocking and attacking, clearly and not SUMOLY. The 3rd round could then be used as a free-for all, and it would more then likely end up back to a sumo match, but at least, the 1st 2 rounds give you a better idea, of what chi sao is all about.

If I can think of any other way to possibly improve this, I’ll let you know.

2

As it so happens…

Ihave thought of a few ways to improve Chi Sau Matches.

My first question is, why have them at all?
In my opinion, we want to go to them in order to meet and touch hands with other schools and systems of WC. I feel this is much more fun than trying to show that one is better than another.

The current judging and grading setup is therefore limited in that so few people get to participate.

My solution is to ease up the rules a bit! Lets say we have 24 people there ready and willing to do chi sau. Take 12 of them and have them do chi sau, that means six groups all at once. the other twelve walk around and evaluate the players.

Go for say 3 minutes, then switch groups.

Now let’s assume you have 4 designated judges, these four walk around and judge the different people, rating each player with a simple 1, 2, 3 or 4.

Now take all the ones and put them together, match them up with other ones and have them play. Then all the twos and so on and so forth..

During this part, each round goes for some 15 minutes, the judges walk around and consults with each other, switch players as needed and asking specific players to do specific tasks

ie" Ok good now you two, lemme see one attack and the other defend" “hmmm that on over there and this one look good, lets put them together”

if folks insist upon a “winner” have the best two from each group battle it out in a more formal match.

this solves two problems.

One a lot of sitting around and waiting by all but two people at a time. Two, more contact between shools.

Spectators get to see a whole bunch of people all playing in what may seem to be chaos, but will be monitored and controlled by the judges. Yeah there will be some bumping into each other, but hey, we do kung fu, we can handle it.

3

IMO,

There should only be one round, and a ref/judge for it. The judgement can be made by set criteria, like; points for strikes landed, agression (is the person just waiting for attack or are they attacking), control (of balance), etc.

The only thing is the judges shouldn’t be of the school/lineage of either of the opponents so as to avoid prejudice.

Personally, I agree with the notion of just getting together for chi sau, to make a competition of it just degenerates the experience.

4

How about everybody plays with everybody, switch partners every 5 minutes and then after that have a secret ballot where the players rate each other. Then the top few can have a regular chi sau competition.

Or, have a chi sau session to show the chi sau. Then the competitors must have a freestyle distance fight and the judges will judge whether what they showed during the chi sau is applied in their general fighting. If they don’t relate then one or both are disqualified. In this way chi sau skills and free style skills will slowly merge as being useful for one another.

Ray

5

Those are pretty cool ideas, Ray.

I like the idea of breaking from a ‘traditional’ tournament structure.

The concept of the player voting for the ‘best’ (or what-have-you) is cool and add an element of natural selection (society determining the best instead of a select few).

6

good call

with the secret balot idea. Lets apply the lessons of speed dateing to Chi Sau :slight_smile:

7

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
Those are pretty cool ideas, Ray.

I agree … fresh and intriguing ideas.

With an added restriction that no one is allowed to “vote” for themselves, Ray’s ideas might be worth a try.

Those types of encounters would offer much richer opportunities for “learning and development,” so often proffered as the major incentive for tournaments. There’s also something uniquely fitting in “letting the hands do the talking” instead of relying on a more casual observer.

Regards,

  • KathyJo
8

Originally posted by kj
With an added restriction that no one is allowed to “vote” for themselves…

I figured that to be a given, my bad.:wink: :smiley:

9

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
I figured that to be a given, my bad.:wink: :smiley:

Not at all; I was stating the obvious. And only because the obvious isn’t always. :slight_smile:

Regards,

  • Kathy Jo
10

I’m in a unique situation where a chi sau expo can become reality. I like some of the ideas posted here and wondering if anyone would be interested in actually helping me get this thing together (rules). My whole intention was to bring other players to the table for an expo but I need help because I have no experience in these things but want to learn. Like, do I need sanctioning & if I do, where can I go. There’s nothing like that down here in Houston, that I know of, and would like to start something. My brother and I would be in charge of the rules and I’d like to do something that’s not of the traditional way. There are five wc/wt schools here in Houston & there has to be a way to get everyone together for something like this.

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Re: Improving Chi sao tournaments

Originally posted by edward
[B]
1st, the problem with the 1st 2 rounds, of showing off ones attacking skills and ones blocking skills, is the match ends up looking like a sumo match. And believe me I taped the chi sao, and I might as well have thrown rice, and they might as well have worn the sumo thongs. Thus, there really is no way for people in the 1st 2 rounds to demonstrate their skill of attackings. Its just a mess. So, what I was thinking is that each contestant, have 10 attacks. I picked 10 from out of the blue, but it should cover roughly a minute, I figure.

In other words, contestant 1 has 10 attacks, of anything that he wants to do. He throws the first attack, and either his opponent blocks it or miss. If he hits, he scores. And then they end up rolling again, and he gets his 2nd attack. By doing it this way, you can see clearly the attacks, and clearly the blocks. There’s no doubt in my mind peopole in the wing chun line and outside would be able to make more sense of what the hell we were doing in these tournament.

Thus, the 1st 2 rounds each contestant then would be able to show of their skill of blocking and attacking, clearly and not SUMOLY. The 3rd round could then be used as a free-for all, and it would more then likely end up back to a sumo match, but at least, the 1st 2 rounds give you a better idea, of what chi sao is all about.

If I can think of any other way to possibly improve this, I’ll let you know. [/B]

Hi Ed, we talked about this briefly afterwords (thanks again for participating by the way). After thinking about it, the only concern I have doing the first two rounds that way with a single attack is it turning in to a game of tag and such during those rounds where the attacker does whatever they can (such as in karate point tournaments, or even speed up tricks off the rolling) to “score” a tag. While we can say “Yah, but it won’t fool the judges”, you’d be surprised how many sifu’s treat the event of a hand (or partial hand) touching you like they were “poison hands of death”, even if there’s no stance or structure behind it.

I think keeping with your idea, it might be good to expand it to possibly two to three hits each chance to generate a small exchange. So first one guy does two successive attacks, they roll again, he does another two, etc. (maybe cutting the number down to 7 instead of 10 exchanges). Then they switch rolls and do the same again, then the final round being the free for all.

I really do like this idea of changing the defensive/offensive rounds, I just don’t want it to go from one extreme (sumo) to the other (tag).

Also for everyone else reading there was something else positive that came out of this. Towards the end of the chi sao match some of the taiji sifu’s who were running the push hands tournament came over with the friendly proposition that the winner of each respective match compete in a friendly match in the boxing ring just before lei tai. All of us wound up meeting later to discuss rules agreeable to both, and it was a very friendly session. There was to be only one official in the ring to keep it fair (both parties agreed on Sam Chan Sifu, who has experience in both arts). Due to “scheduling conflicts” with the winner of the chi sao tournament though it wound up being cancelled the last minute. However, it is going to be a confirmed competition for next year’s event. The rules we hamered out were:
Contestants start in a bridged position condusive to each art (wing chun guy in mun sao/wu sao hands, taiji guy in push hands type with one arm against the mun the other hand touching the mun elbow). No protective gear. You could “hit” with anything except a fist, elbow or knee (that means open hand, forearm, shoulder, hip, etc.), and the allowed target area was neck to waist. Taking the person down was allowed. I think we agreed on a five minute time limit? Ed, do you remember?

Marty
Watchful Dragon

12

Lets apply the lessons of speed dateing to Chi Sau

LOL.

Perhaps you could make it like “Survivor”, with multiple rounds, the two weakest participants voted off the island by their peers each time.

IMHO there is little point in pursuing the “combative” line, chi sao is a drill. Artistic or subjective judgement offers more appropriate possibilities IMO.

It could be argued that the tournament fights in “Enter the Dragon” are “TWC crossarm chi sao” contests …

13

IMHO there is little point in pursuing the “combative” line, chi sao is a drill. Artistic or subjective judgement offers more appropriate possibilities IMO.

While I have enjoyed the compititions i’ve been to, I tend to agree, makeing Chi Sau (a drill) into a game or contest is silly.

However, they (the chi sau compititions) seem here to stay. What we want to do is make them better. I feel that makeing it a less one on one preformance and more a massed group pf “players” could eliminate a bit of the ego invovled right now.

14

Tag

Marty i think you can avoid tag matches… that you speak off… I know what you mean about that… point sparring now a days is a joke of tag… so there are things you can do or rules you can implement to avoid the “tag your it”

  1. attacks that are done right, must be held in place… not snapped back

  2. attacks that are done right , must be have proper distance.. say for example, a punch is thrown to the chest. If the attacker throws the punch and is fully extended.. technically he is out of range, he should have the punch slightly bent to still explode the hit

these are just some rules to avoid the tag problem

15
  1. attacks that are done right, must be held in place… not snapped back

You could do that, but it would be pretty unrealistic as regards combat application. The last thing you want is to “pose” with excessive focus after landing a strike. Leave it out there, it WILL get damaged, or something else along the lines it leaves open will.

Still it might work in this setting, After all the guy jumping around punching the air to indicate to the judges that he “scored” in a points tournament is even more unrealistic.

16

First a question. In this tournement were attacks to the ehad allowed. Most Sumo Sao matches I have seen have not allowed head attacks.

Next Sumo Sao shows poor understanding of Wing Chun and /or poor teaching. It is up to the ref to insist on clean technique.

Tag or not instead of belittling other arts that have been doing competitions for 30 years or so it is best to learn from them.

A clean technique coupled with a clean hit = a point. break and start again. What ever you think this is clean ,easy to understand and not open to debate among judges or contestants.

You want to make it about control instead then remove striking and turn it into a taichi puch hands type of thing. Again clean simple and not open to debate.

17

hey just got a second

I’m at work, but i thought I’d give this a bump.

Chi Sau Comps should not be like the weather, If we talk about them, we can improve them.

Marty, I like your idea about other arts (tai chi) competeing with us after tha main body of the comp is over.

18

the point of the chi sao tournament

keep in mind what a chi sao tournament’s purpose is, to demonstrate how wing chun trains… if you find it unrealistic, then just spar, there’s 2 different goals that your tyring to achieve.

19

Hello all I went to the Ohio open both this year and last year, I dont want to sound like sour grapes, but the rules just dont add up.
First off in 03 the chi soa looked like Sumo Soa, lots of pushing and little else.
I feel the 3 rounds are Ok, but when on defence you cant strike. why? (if the opponant strikes first,and leaves a hole a truck could drive through why not be able to take avantage of it?)
and that small box you have to stay in is realy not needed, people were being disqualified by being pushed out of the box.
But on the good side there was a lot of good people to share info with, and I did injoy myself (03)
This year It was a conpleat flop.
only 3 people (my self included) signed up, The problem was we each were in different classes.(and from the same school) we were told,at first we would each get a first place medal (what a joke) After explaining that was not an option for us,We paid our money to conpeat, and there was no competition, we were finaly told we would get our money back. ( It never HAPPENED not a red cent of our money did we get back, and after 6/7 months of tring,Ive given up !)
The idea was a good one, To share and learn through competition, I am sorry to say this tournament was a FLOP, and I personaly will not be tring it again, at least in Ohio.with the same people in charge.
C.A.G.

20

Originally posted by curtis
Hello all I went to the Ohio open both this year and last year,

What’s the Ohio open? Is that the actual name of the tournament?


I dont want to sound like sour grapes, but the rules just dont add up.

What were the rules, is there a copy available?


First off in 03 the chi soa looked like Sumo Soa, lots of pushing and little else.
I feel the 3 rounds are Ok, but when on defence you cant strike. why?

Umm…because you’re on defence?


(if the opponant strikes first,and leaves a hole a truck could drive through why not be able to take avantage of it?)

I’m not sure what the rules were you were doing this under, but generally the splitting up of seperate rounds of offense and defence plus a third round of everything together is to allow the judges a clearer chance to analyze those skills for each individual. The truck driving is usually done in the third round where both go at it normal. :smiley:


and that small box you have to stay in is realy not needed, people were being disqualified by being pushed out of the box.

That’s one reason we didn’t count that in rules we used in Chicago. We had an 8 x 8 ring, and getting put out of it didn’t count against you - the match was just stopped and you had to reset and start rolling again. The problem with having it count for wins or disqualification is it favors that sort of mentality you’re talking about - pushing someone out just to win. Often the person doing the pushing does so while taking a lot of hits. I recall someone complaining at another tournament I was at that they wanted all the stepping out of the ring to count against the opponent, because his people practiced uprooting a lot. The problem was when they were doing it in the chi sao tournament, they were taking a lot of hits and ignoring them for the sake of the uprooting. So the head judge mentioned that if stepping out had to count against opponents, then all the hits no matter how good or bad they were had to start counting as well. Of course the person complaining didn’t like that and everything was left as is. Basicly, not counting hits as points and not counting stepping out for anything other than restarting is the only way to level it out and make it neutral. We judged on overall performance over the three rounds. And in the long run it works out anyways - if you’re consistently pushed or moved out of the ring, it’s going to effect the judges opinion anyways. Same for if you take a lot of hits.


But on the good side there was a lot of good people to share info with, and I did injoy myself (03)
This year It was a conpleat flop.
only 3 people (my self included) signed up, The problem was we each were in different classes.(and from the same school) we were told,at first we would each get a first place medal (what a joke) After explaining that was not an option for us,We paid our money to conpeat, and there was no competition, we were finaly told we would get our money back. ( It never HAPPENED not a red cent of our money did we get back, and after 6/7 months of tring,Ive given up !)

I’m sorry to hear that, what tournament was that? I’ll make sure to warn anyone I know that might think of attending.


The idea was a good one, To share and learn through competition, I am sorry to say this tournament was a FLOP, and I personaly will not be tring it again, at least in Ohio.with the same people in charge.
C.A.G.

Who was running the chi sao competition there?

Marty
Watchful Dragon