In London -WING CHUN CHI SAO INTERNATIONAL IS COMING IN JUNE !!

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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WING CHUN CHI SAO INTERNATIONAL IS COMING IN JUNE !!

London International Open Series on 8th June 2013.

I will be posting more about the event asap. Please contact me if you like to fight and be part of the event in any way.

Wing Chun needs some form of a testing platform even if like all sport events limitations to full skills are in place. We need to have a format that tests basic skills so we can move the art forward!

Please email me at alan@10thlegion.tv if you have a team or would like to enter or would like to help out.

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www.wingchunevents.co.uk

New web site is up!

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Alan you should know as well as anyone that chi sao is a training tool. Having a chi sao competition is just as silly as having a pak sao competiton or a chi gerk competition or a forms competition.

If people want to test their skills they need to spar. Four ounce MMA gloves. Medium contact. Face cage on the headgear if people don’t want to get their face busted up.

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[QUOTE=Bacon;1196388]Alan you should know as well as anyone that chi sao is a training tool. Having a chi sao competition is just as silly as having a pak sao competiton or a chi gerk competition or a forms competition.

If people want to test their skills they need to spar. Four ounce MMA gloves. Medium contact. Face cage on the headgear if people don’t want to get their face busted up.[/QUOTE]

I should know? Why do people think they know what I know or am thinking?

Yes I do know as my guys have had over 250 fights MMA, Boxing, K1, Grappling, Chi Sao.

Sparring with face cage headgear and mma gloves with medium contact is not anything thats what I do know.

Using face headgear teaches you nothing. We tried this 20 years ago before mma. It is not a safe why to train it teaches the wrong things. Someone hitting you in the face when you have no idea of the impact is wrong. That’s why you see robot wing chun. Taking turns chain punching each other with a lack of power understanding and a lack of balance. Its just bad kickboxing. Guys that spar like that will get owned in MMA and will be taken apart by a good K1 guy.

You either do -

Sparring with Boxing gloves - so you can hit and know what it is like to be hit and deal with continuing problems of a fight under the pressure of being hit. This way you find what you need to do to control the ranges in and out.

Chi Sao - Light rolling or controlled rolling for learning

Chi Sao - With the pressure of being hit with some power to the body and controlled contact to the head. That way you test the core skills - balance, timing, positioning under the pressure of someone trying to hit and control you back. Then you develop your timing to strike in close range.

The idea of the chi sao event is - testing core skills. Balance, timing, close range power, positioning and control of your opponent.

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I said face cage if… Boxing gloves are great for limiting damage but they stop you doing 90% of wing chun techniques. MMA sparring gloves will limit the damage but give enough movement in the wrist and feeling from the hands to do wing chun.

And as I said… Chi Sao is a training tool. It is not a competition. Neither is chi gerk. Neither is pak sao. Neither are forms.
Push hands is a test of many of those things too but it too is a training tool, not a competition.

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[QUOTE=Bacon;1196406]I said face cage if… Boxing gloves are great for limiting damage but they stop you doing 90% of wing chun techniques. MMA sparring gloves will limit the damage but give enough movement in the wrist and feeling from the hands to do wing chun.

And as I said… Chi Sao is a training tool. It is not a competition. Neither is chi gerk. Neither is pak sao. Neither are forms.
Push hands is a test of many of those things too but it too is a training tool, not a competition.[/QUOTE]

Boxing gloves do not stop 90% of wing chun. If you look at wing chun as techniques then you don’t understand the art. MMA Gloves are for MMA, In MMA we need spar with MMA gloves.

Push hands is a great test of balance, timing etc so the Chi Sao event is the same. Testing your core skills under some pressure. The event is no gloves so you have all you hand movement. But you are free to use power and deal with it. That is the important training of Chi Sao. Dealing with close range power.

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[QUOTE=Alan Orr;1196407]Boxing gloves do not stop 90% of wing chun. If you look at wing chun as techniques then you don’t understand the art. MMA Gloves are for MMA, In MMA we need spar with MMA gloves.

Push hands is a great test of balance, timing etc so the Chi Sao event is the same. Testing your core skills under some pressure. The event is no gloves so you have all you hand movement. But you are free to use power and deal with it. That is the important training of Chi Sao. Dealing with close range power.[/QUOTE]

If you want to test wing chun techniques under pressure spar with mma gloves.

Yes the basic principles are still there but you lose a lot of wing chun techniques because a big part of wing chun is the tactile sensation, redirection from the first gate using wrist and fingers. You can’t even do a huen sao or a fook sao in boxing gloves which are basic to wing chun. Saying wing chun isn’t technique based is almost like saying boxing has nothing to do with the jab, cross, hook, and uppercut or that savage has nothing to do with using your feet.

And back to the chi sal competiton I’m at least glad you’re doing it bare handed even if I think it’s a waste of time.

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[QUOTE=Bacon;1196409]If you want to test wing chun techniques under pressure spar with mma gloves.

Yes the basic principles are still there but you lose a lot of wing chun techniques because a big part of wing chun is the tactile sensation, redirection from the first gate using wrist and fingers. You can’t even do a huen sao or a fook sao in boxing gloves which are basic to wing chun. Saying wing chun isn’t technique based is almost like saying boxing has nothing to do with the jab, cross, hook, and uppercut or that savage has nothing to do with using your feet.

And back to the chi sal competiton I’m at least glad you’re doing it bare handed even if I think it’s a waste of time.[/QUOTE]

People don’t spar with MMA gloves as you will be cut up and hurt very quickly.

Wing Chun is a chinese boxing style so if you lose 90% when punching and kicking then I say you don’t know wing chun as a functional art.

Have you trained long? Which style do you train in?

Of course you can use Huen and Fook with gloves.

Chi Sao they gains you a deeper understanding is never a waste of time.

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There are many VT students who see ‘Chi sao competition’ as an oxy-moron. VT is not a sporting system, so having fingers and thumbs available is important to manipulate arms during a tactical execution or variations in striking.
I agree, sparring using 4-6oz mma gloves is fine, we spar this way regularly and not in chi-sao drilling.
Boxing gloves wont allow VT fighters lines of interception to function correctly either [if they know this way] or basic ‘bread & butter’ repertoire of simultaneous techniques.
The boxing glove design will make you punch outside the center-line in parallel to it, leaving the inside gate open to a lat sao jik chun striking concepts. Wong Shun Leung used this method, so do I, against boxers in my gym.

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[QUOTE=k gledhill;1196420]There are many VT students who see ‘Chi sao competition’ as an oxy-moron. VT is not a sporting system, so having fingers and thumbs available is important to manipulate arms during a tactical execution or variations in striking.
I agree, sparring using 4-6oz mma gloves is fine, we spar this way regularly and not in chi-sao drilling.
Boxing gloves wont allow VT fighters lines of interception to function correctly either [if they know this way] or basic ‘bread & butter’ repertoire of simultaneous techniques.
The boxing glove design will make you punch outside the center-line in parallel to it, leaving the inside gate open to a lat sao jik chun striking concepts. Wong Shun Leung used this method, so do I, against boxers in my gym.[/QUOTE]

And the point of your post is … nothing.

Wing Chun is a fighting system. If you want to improve your skills in the real world then some sort of pressure testing is good for people on many levels.

You either thinks that’s a good idea or not. You are either interested or not. No need to be insecure and explain yourself.

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[QUOTE=Alan Orr;1196548]And the point of your post is … nothing.

Wing Chun is a fighting system. If you want to improve your skills in the real world then some sort of pressure testing is good for people on many levels.

You either thinks that’s a good idea or not. You are either interested or not. No need to be insecure and explain yourself.[/QUOTE]

The point is obviously beyond you…have fun Alan.

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Kevin, i have been a lurker on this forum for some time and find it incredibly funny how you constantly criticize what other people do, whether chi sao competitions, how they train/drill etc.

Yet, you have never once put up a clip of how you do things, why is that?

Referring to other peoples clips and saying “yep thats what we do” is a cop out imo.

I expect its the “im very comfortable with my VT and i dont need to justify myself to anyone”. Thats fine, but i cant see how you can expect people to take your critiques without showing them what they are doing wrong…

Alan has HOURS of material to view, he has nothing to hide and is very open when asked about his method. Just for once, lets see an example of YOUR Wing Chun. Lets see how YOU do chi sao, and lets see how YOU spar, especially against a boxer. It could just be that we are all practicing incorrectly and we can learn from you.

Chris

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[QUOTE=Alan Orr;1196344]www.wingchunevents.co.uk

New web site is up![/QUOTE]

It’s interesting to see this come back round again Alan and I’m sure you will make the best out of the event and do a decent promotion of Wing Chun. Maybe it will have a better chance of success too if it sits outside the SENI arena.

I have also noticed an increased interest from within our family too, so maybe expect a few guys to enrol!

As you already know, it’s not my thing, but I for one understand why it could be very useful in the current climate to give guys an outlet to test basic skill. The only difficulty is giving every competitor an equal opportunity to prepare for your own rule sets and interactive ways, because from what I have seen before not everybody rolls how you roll sir! So the 3 roll thing throws up questions already…

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[QUOTE=chris bougeard;1196594]Kevin, i have been a lurker on this forum for some time and find it incredibly funny how you constantly criticize what other people do, whether chi sao competitions, how they train/drill etc.

Yet, you have never once put up a clip of how you do things, why is that?

Referring to other peoples clips and saying “yep thats what we do” is a cop out imo.

I expect its the “im very comfortable with my VT and i dont need to justify myself to anyone”. Thats fine, but i cant see how you can expect people to take your critiques without showing them what they are doing wrong…

Alan has HOURS of material to view, he has nothing to hide and is very open when asked about his method. Just for once, lets see an example of YOUR Wing Chun. Lets see how YOU do chi sao, and lets see how YOU spar, especially against a boxer. It could just be that we are all practicing incorrectly and we can learn from you.

Chris[/QUOTE]

Chris, chi-sao is a drill to develop reflex like reactions to perpetuate an attack with interceptions. It involves mutual goals, not competitive winners and losers. Sparring with vt involves a lot of movement and angling. In chi-sao we start in a static position so we can each train lines of engagement, balance in contact, hand coordination to use when striking at speeds with an opponent. A lot of the things done in chi-sao, like using both arms extended equally for facing, etc…we DONT do in sparring a boxer, etc…we adopt MOVEMENT and ANGLING coupled with simultaneous actions and lat sao jik chun techniques, developed in chi-sao drills.
I will try to post a clip one day.

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[QUOTE=chris bougeard;1196594]Kevin, i have been a lurker on this forum for some time and find it incredibly funny how you constantly criticize what other people do, whether chi sao competitions, how they train/drill etc.

Yet, you have never once put up a clip of how you do things, why is that?

Referring to other peoples clips and saying “yep thats what we do” is a cop out imo.

I expect its the “im very comfortable with my VT and i dont need to justify myself to anyone”. Thats fine, but i cant see how you can expect people to take your critiques without showing them what they are doing wrong…

Alan has HOURS of material to view, he has nothing to hide and is very open when asked about his method. Just for once, lets see an example of YOUR Wing Chun. Lets see how YOU do chi sao, and lets see how YOU spar, especially against a boxer. It could just be that we are all practicing incorrectly and we can learn from you.

Chris[/QUOTE]

Chris

This is forum! Many different ideas. Many different people so of course there will be conflicting views!!!

In my own opinion what Kevin said is correct. Chi Sau is a drill for attaining certain attributes. We do not use many things in sparring that we do in Chi Sau. It is a tool. Nothing more, nothing less. Putting a training tool into competition totally goes against the fundamental concept of it BUT (and its a big BUT) if Alan wants to do that it is up to him in his organization.

Chi Sau competitions are a joke and what is ironic is that you seem to criticizing Kevin for doing the same thing Alan does regulary. It wasn’t so many posts ago Alan was stating that somebody did not understand Wing Chun and yet I don’t think Alan does…at all…whether he or his students could take me apart or not!!!

He is just another purveyor of a *******ized version of Wing Chun but its his and he can do what he likes with it.

Like I said many times before…you cannot gauge a persons skill by watching video footage so stop f’ing asking for it!!!:mad:

The End!

GH

Back to lurk mode for a few months :slight_smile:

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Wow- another non dialogue.

I did not read the details of the rules of the chi sao gathering.

FWIW I agree with Allan Orr that chi sao interactions are important sources of wc development and getting a reading where you are-short of a fight without rules,

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Back to lurk mode for a few months

Make it a few years. Nobody cares.

Alan, if this doesn’t work out, just hire a big hall and get everyone from the forum to turn up and argue. That’s how Wing Chun works, or doesn’t, these days.

Props for trying something besides keyboard warriorship. Good luck with it.

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Hi there,

The response to my post is pretty much what i expected, its funny how people say a chi sao competition is bullsh*t, yet for many practitioners chi sao is considered a very important part of their training. On that basis, surely its in your interest to test these core skills under pressure? And what better platform than in a competition?

The comment “you cannot gauge a persons skill by watching video footage” seems quite funny as Kevin and Graham seem happy to do this.

I will be competing in the 2013 competition and be happy to put my skills on the line. Im sure the keyboard “ving tsun” warriors out there will be more than happy to critique the performances we put up in the competition. Pity they wont have the guts to critique us in person…

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[QUOTE=chris bougeard;1196703]Hi there,

The response to my post is pretty much what i expected, its funny how people say a chi sao competition is bullsh*t, yet for many practitioners chi sao is considered a very important part of their training. On that basis, surely its in your interest to test these core skills under pressure? And what better platform than in a competition?

The comment “you cannot gauge a persons skill by watching video footage” seems quite funny as Kevin and Graham seem happy to do this.

I will be competing in the 2013 competition and be happy to put my skills on the line. Im sure the keyboard “ving tsun” warriors out there will be more than happy to critique the performances we put up in the competition. Pity they wont have the guts to critique us in person…[/QUOTE]

Chi sao is an important part of “preparation” for fighting under mental pressure when we are unable to think at real fighting speeds. But you wont adopt the same starting points or arm positions prior to a fight.
We do test skills, always, but not in a competitive way, we use each other. IOW I and the partner have to adopt certain ‘roles’ to test each other constantly, these ‘tests’ are not competitive because they require that we ALLOW each other to try and hit open positions to ensure certain technical responses, along with correct distance, alignment, punch force, balance all together ?
If there are errors in fighting under no thinking pressure, we can isolate them in the chi-sao module platform, without the worry of “fighting” each other.
The fighting we do when we separate and enter to kick, punch etc…USING the attributes of the drills. If errors appear in sparring we can address them in chi-sao.
If I spar with my students, I dont get in the ring and then do chi-sao, we do the drills outside the ring, inside the ring, we move hit parry, use reflexes, non thinking responses we developed through high reps …or thinking too much ?

Just my alternative thinking.

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[QUOTE=k gledhill;1196717]Chi sao is an important part of “preparation” for fighting under mental pressure when we are unable to think at real fighting speeds. But you wont adopt the same starting points or arm positions prior to a fight.
We do test skills, always, but not in a competitive way, we use each other. IOW I and the partner have to adopt certain ‘roles’ to test each other constantly, these ‘tests’ are not competitive because they require that we ALLOW each other to try and hit open positions to ensure certain technical responses, along with correct distance, alignment, punch force, balance all together ?
If there are errors in fighting under no thinking pressure, we can isolate them in the chi-sao module platform, without the worry of “fighting” each other.
The fighting we do when we separate and enter to kick, punch etc…USING the attributes of the drills. If errors appear in sparring we can address them in chi-sao.
If I spar with my students, I dont get in the ring and then do chi-sao, we do the drills outside the ring, inside the ring, we move hit parry, use reflexes, non thinking responses we developed through high reps …or thinking too much ?

Just my alternative thinking.[/QUOTE]

Good post Kev:)

Development vs Application, that’s all it is..You can try to fight in chi sau with another VT guy just to see certain reactions and responses that you may have, maybe to test a weekness or something in general, but you wouldn’t do this lots, maybe once in a few months, but that doesn’t mean the other times its practiced that chi sau is super compliant or patty cake, it gets more intense with challenges all along the way to bring it to a more realistic state, but it still is a drill, one just has to realize this and how it benefits you in a fight, then there should be no problems.

J