ok that does it.im off now to see about some wing chun lessons.i will not post back on here untill i have had atleast a few classes
and can speak with some semi clue as to what its all “really about”.im also going to try bjj.so i shall let you know about that too.Guys,just before i go,one last favour to ask.give me some hints about what to ask the teacher,and what i should be looking for,what a good wc place will be like,and bad place etc.sound good.im off ill be back to let you know how it all goes,and untill then sorry about the glover incident.salut!
merry christmas,
r
Someone calling themselves “TjD” wrote:
it’s like bruce lee was end-all-know-all of wing chun. he didnt even learn the entire system, he modified and built on the little WC he knew.
I’m responding to this post since I think represents an attitude and opinion that I’ve seen before. First, let’s not downplay the importance of Bruce Lee w/r/t WCK. Without him, most of us would not be doing WCK. In fact, WCK would probably only be as popular as CLF or Hung Ga or other kuen faats. Second, as someone who has “learned the entire system” I can tell you that it is what you can do, not what you know that matters. BL could, even without the “entire system”, make what he did work at a fairly high level. He had studied with Yip Man and then WSL (good instructors), trained with William Cheung and Hawkins Cheung (good training partners), fought on the rooftops (good expereince), and at the time he left Hong Kong to come to the US he was reportedly one of the “better” practitioners in HK. In the US, he sought out Yeung Fook, a master of Hung Suen (the Gu Lao lineage) WCK, to continue his training; and returned several times to HK to meet with Wong and Yip. The heavyweight boxing champoin of the US Air Force became his student after being thrown around by BL; BL defeated a black-belt karate practitioner from Japan in a challenge fight in seconds; BL exchanged with most of the well-known karate, kung fu, and martial art pracitioners in the US (many of whom sought out his instruction); etc. Moreover, I think BL knew a great deal of the system (he taught the SNT, CK and part of the BJ along with the drills in Seattle). I’d like to know if you or your sifu have these qualifications. 
TN
And while I agree that BL “went his own way” after a certain point, I submit that’s beside the point. TN
Terence
‘Without him, most of us would not be doing WCK.’
nonsense. check up on samuel kwok, or robert yeung and tell me if they had any influence from BL. you’re talking from a purely american perspective.
and no offense… i’ve never trained with mr glover, but a friend of mine who has tells me the main thing he’s got from wc is a very strong centreline punch…
this thread is, as so many others from the blessed wc forum… is pish.
“Mat” wrote:
‘Without him, most of us would not be doing WCK.’ TN
nonsense. check up on samuel kwok, or robert yeung and tell me if they had any influence from BL. you’re talking from a purely american perspective. (Mat)
Certainly there are folks - including me! - that didn’t begin practicing WCK because of BL, but there is no denying that his fame (and skill) led to the world-wide explosion of WCK. TN
and no offense… i’ve never trained with mr glover, but a friend of mine who has tells me the main thing he’s got from wc is a very strong centreline punch… (Mat)
So? TN
this thread is, as so many others from the blessed wc forum… is pish. (Mat)
And thank you for all that you’ve contributed to it. 
Isn’t it amusing that it is always the folks that have contributed nothing of substance that complain most loudly about how others contribute so little. TN
Terence
nonsense. check up on samuel kwok, or robert yeung and tell me if they had any influence from BL. you’re talking from a purely american perspective.
Due to Bruce Lee’s fame, both in Hong Kong and later in the US, it created ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY for many, many (primarily Yip Man lineage since they could claim a connection) WCK people. Without him and the ‘Kung Fu Craze’ he started (for many Chinese arts, not just WCK), regardless of whether or not they or individual students joined because of BL, more would probably have ended up doing other things to make a living.
RR
The entire system???
TjD wrote:
>>its extremely difficult for a person from a certain lineage to evaluate other schools of wing chun based on their chi sau. you need to know how it fits into the rest of their system. the different schools of wing chun out there can look extremely different - so you dont know nessecarily what their chi sau is for. some other drill or form or something may be in there to make up for what you think is missing. even in my own kwoon, none of us chi sau the same even with the same teacher- compare us to other schools and you may think our chi sau is horrible, however it fits perfectly into our system.<<
I have studied different versions of WCK. I found that chi sao principles varied with each.
Terrence. You learned the entire system? It’s sad to hear you say that. I’ve been training for over 30 years and I’m still learning.
Phil
Phil,
If you haven’t learned the whole system, actually several versions by now, there’s something terribly wrong. They used to say in old WCK articles (Chinese) that WCK was so small you could learn it in a few days, but so profound it could take a lifetime to master.
If it takes you longer than 7 or so years of serious study, IMHO you’re either being stalled or probably learning variation, no longer the system. Just look back at history. Yip Man never spent more than a few years with any of his sifu and he seems to have done spectacularly well. And he was hardly the exception (many sifu were old and died after a few years teachng, especially their latter students like Leung Jan, Fung Siu-Ching, etc. if they’d taken their sweet time, there might not be a “system” today.)
IMHO, the system is just the beginning, like the undergraduate degree. Once you have the system (and you need it, and you need to get it efficiently), you turn it on and spend the rest of your life benifiting and growing better from it.
RR
Phil Redmond wrote:
Terrence. You learned the entire system? It’s sad to hear you say that. I’ve been training for over 30 years and I’m still learning. Phil
In my experience the two are not mutually exclusive. BTW, Phil, how long did William Cheung study with Yip Man? TN
Rene Ritchie wrote:
IMHO, the system is just the beginning, like the undergraduate degree. Once you have the system (and you need it, and you need to get it efficiently), you turn it on and spend the rest of your life benifiting and growing better from it. RR
Exactly – well said. TN
Terence
I think that there are some definitional issues involved here-
the meaning of learning. meaning of a system etc. There are other muddling issues, such as—differences in deliberately drawing out of tuition paying time versus legitimate journey of
discovery or quality time spent with a master craftsman or teacher. Without getting into lineage flames-duration of quality time spent in a teaching/learning relationship can be often seen by discerning eyes in the results.
joy chaudhuri
Hi Joy,
As an educator, I’m certain you realize that it is not simply how long a student studies or how much effort s/he put forth (though both are important factors) but also it is his/her innate talent, intelligence, attitude, experience, etc. that determine whether s/he is an A student or a C student or whatever. In any endeavor, we’ve all seen those persons who rarely come to class but excel and those persons that never miss a class and barely pass the course. In the student-teacher relationship both sides bring much to the party. 
TN
Also, IMHO the WCK “system” (and your teacher) should endow one with the ability to be both self-correcting and the ability to continue to grow/learn while unsupervised (teaching one to fish vs. taking one fishing according to the proverb) – otherwise, one will forever be dependent upon their sifu. How long this takes a person to achieve depends IMO upon the individual student and the teacher (see above). TN
Terence
Rene
>>IMHO, the system is just the beginning, like the undergraduate degree. Once you have the system (and you need it, and you need to get it efficiently), you turn it on and spend the rest of your life benifiting and growing better from it.
RR<<
Learning??? More to know??? My point exactly.
Does knowing a few forms and techniques mean you’ve “completely” mastered something. I 've played Trumpet since I was 8 years old. I still learn though. Even though I’ve played professionaly. The same goes for my WC. I’ve used it MANY time in fights, and ALWAYS won. But I still learn.
Once you think you’ve mastered something your learning curve has stopped. I’ve heard Chinese say that WC is an open end system many times.
Phil
La La La
Someone Calling Themselves t_niehoff Wrote>
Someone calling themselves t_niehoff Wrote In Response To Yuanfen>
Hi Joy
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Someone calling themselves “TjD” wrote
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Hi David (nice to see someone actually using their real name!),
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wingchunalex wrote:
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“captain” wrote:
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“Scuba Steve” wrote
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Sheldon,
Using the pseudonym “Geezer” wrote:
Someone calling themselves t_niehoff Wrote>
“Bortacus” wrote
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Someone calling themselves “Rolling Hand” wrote:
Someone calling themselves t_niehoff Wrote>
Hi “wujidude”,
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Sharky wrote
Someone calling themselves t_niehoff Wrote>
Someone calling themselves “Geezer” wrote:
So if you’re not in agreement with the person, you write “someone calling themsleves wrote”
I bet you tell kids Santa isn’t real don’t you:confused:
Someone calling themselves “Geezer Wrote This”
Terence- Time in study does not denote excellence. True. But the reverse is also true- Not spending time on study does not denote
excellence. There are people who dont come to class who do fail.
Growth in an art can take time specially those arts that combine
physical skills, mental acuteness and sustained energy.
Of course in the human condition- ego can lead a person to think that with some knowledge that they can do the rest.
There are really Mozarts who have gone far with little tutoring- but that is extremely rare. George Harrison on the sitar with a few lessons from Ravi Shankar is still George Harrison on the sitar(may he rest in peace).Conversely. Ravi Shankar’s daughter depite the length of father daughter time- is no genius. Yip Man was a rarity. It does not mean that those who were with him briefly are certified geniuses. And staying witha teacher for a long time is not necessarily robotic either. Case by case variance can exist..
The whole boat can rise too. Interactive learning. Teaching can be a form of learning. IMO- Ip Man didnt quit learning after reaching Macao and Hong Kong.
The probabilities (not the certainties) are still high that those who spent little time learning an art in a master craftsman relationship have gaps in their skills with the art…though they can pound some people.
joy
Can anyone tell me how long it would take to “complete” the WT system, as in Europe you don’t see the weapons in 7 years, it would proberbly take 7 years to get to 2nd technigtion grade .
regards
Peter
PQS asks_:
Can anyone tell me how long it would take to “complete” the WT system,
You should ask folks at WT headquarters.
Perhaps a WT person or ex-WT person can answer on the forum.
The WT time in grade sequence is a mystery to me- but not all mysteries are intriguing. Varies with the individual.
If you have a reasonably good memory you could remember all the sequences over the matter of a few days, maybe a week or so tops. We’re not talking some CLF or JG here with 300+ sets of choreography. However, you would likely not be able to use any of it, so its arguably not worth learning.
IMHO, weighing in reasonable time for digestion, exploration, etc., and for things like demonstrating resolve and character, 6-8 years just to learn and get corrected on the material seems reasonable (with a lifetime of training for personal cultivation to follow, of course).
In a way, it’s like encyclopedia of the month. It may take you 26 months to get the whole alphabetic set, but it would take a long, long time to absorb all the knowledge and potential contained therein, but still, its good to have the complete set around for reference when you need it.
Terence & Joy are both corrects, facets of the same jewel. Sheldon, it would be nice to hear your views on the actual thread as well.
RR
Learning??? More to know??? My point exactly.
Does knowing a few forms and techniques mean you’ve “completely” mastered something. I 've played Trumpet since I was 8 years old. I still learn though. Even though I’ve played professionaly.
What if your teacher refused to teach you the D note until your C# was “perfected”? LOL, there would be no music in the world today if everyone was so stubborn.
and sometimes learning the D note helps perfect your C#
Hi Rene,
Rene Ritchie wrote:
Sheldon, it would be nice to hear your views on the actual thread as well.
Rene, don’t feed the trolls.
Terence