It is as you said. Thank you for the clarification.
Regards,
Please let us put things into perspective…first of all, the article in question is NOT a new one, but was written quite some years ago, and secondly…what is all the fuss about anyway? Jesse is NOT saying anything that is not at all accurate in terms of the majority of WC practitioners, not just those whom he has met. I know Jesse very well, was invited by him to give seminars in the WSL Method in Seattle, and have trained with he and his students. Jesse Glover is a formidable fighter whose techniques are both powerful and precise. Sure, his training methods are very different from what many of you might have experienced, and perhaps you may not agree with them, or with some of the techniques/concepts he employs, but the bottom line is that they work, and he produces students with excellent skills. What Jesse is saying about WC is entirely accurate when taken in the context of which it was written. On top of this, his quote from my late Sifu is absolutley accurate as I have heard Sifu make this remark on several occasions. WC is like the finest car, or the most delicate scientific instrument. It is perfect science in every respect, but how many of you would put a young inexperienced driver in that car or place the scientific instrument in the hands of a child and expect good results from your actions? There is much in the WC system that most of us will NEVER fully understand, and even more (in terms of techniques and/or concepts) that we will NEVER have either a need or an opportunity to apply. Most of us will NEVER live a life that requires us to put our skills on the line on a regular, even semi-regular basis…in fact, how many of you can honestly say that you have faced a life-and-death situation and survived it purely based on your WC skills? Lets get real about the whole WC experience. In reality, most of those pursuing the art have NOT been in such a situation, and most of those involved have NOT really experienced what I would refer to as “reality-type” training, whereby on a regular basis, you pit yourself and your students against full-on, aggressive and UNREHEARSED attacks from practitioners of other systems, with the intention to hurt them if they get it wrong. Instead, from what I have observed (and Jesse is speaking of the same reality), what is normally practised in the majority of WC schools are pre-arranged drills with WC techniques being pitted against WC techniques, usually without the “venom” and the psychological pressure (to elicit the necessary “adrenaline dump” that real combat creates), thus giving the students a very false sense of security as to how effective their “skills” will be in the actual “Pavement Arena.” The safety net that the four walls of the training area offer is the main culprit for the escalation of ineffective WC that is being taught around the world today. People are trapped in their theories and concepts, bound up by this sequence and that, and have failed to look beyond the “fixed ideas” to discover how WC is meant to offer a guide to self-discovery whereby one “…becomes the MASTER of Wing Chun, and NOT its SLAVE”…look at how Wong Shun Leung reached his level of expertise and understanding, a level that virtually all on this forum have expressed a respect and admiration for. He tested himself UNDER PRESSURE in the real world, not once or twice but DOZENS of times. He didn’t spend endless hours in Chi Sau practise, developing endless responses to artificially created and over-analyzed sequences, …he took the concepts, tested them, refined them down to the most simple alternatives and USED his WC as an effective TOOL to get a job done. When Jesse says that Chi Sau doesn’t work in a fight, he’s RIGHT, because the way in which most WC practitioners apply it means that it can’t be effective. You don’t fight your opponent with Chi Sau, …you USE the skills, reflexes and flexibilty that Chi Sau is meant to develop in order to HIT the other guy, not to “stick” with him or “chase” his hands. Chi Sau, like all the drills, techniques, concepts and forms in WC are a means to an end, NOT the end itself. If Jesse’s article makes you depressed, then get off your butt and start training for reality. If you are sitting there complacently, expecting that no matter what happens, “It’s okay, my Wing Chun will save the day”, then get a grip on reality. Don’t take me out of context either, …I’m not advocating that we throw the baby out with the bath water…you won’t find a more loyal devotee of WC than me. The WC system IS a great system of personal combat, but there are lots of other great systems of personal combat out there and chances are that you’ll end up fighting them, not one of your own. Don’t get blinded by the theory and the forms, UNDERSTAND the message that they are giving you and learn to be flexible and adaptable in applying this knowledge. The reality is that much of what is in the system IS NOT APPLIED EXACTLY AS IT IS TRAINED, any more so than reading a book about swimming can teach you how to swim…you have to jump in the pol and get wet, APPLY the theories to the reality, not just expect them to work like it says in the book. This was the message of my Sifu, this is what Jesse is trying to say…stop attacking the messenger and read the message. If I’ve offended anyone, no offence was intended and I apologise, but if you have understood what I’m trying to convey, then all the power to you and just watch your WC improve in all the best possible ways. Best Wishes to All.
DMP
You should warn the english professors of the world before you make them read such a thing. Structure!
Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou
You should warn the english professors of the world before you make them read such a thing. Structure!
I find David Petersen’s comments very apt, well-said, and a worthwhile read indeed. I’m curious though, about Glover’s statement that Wing Chun’s Chi Sao is technique-based with a set response for every technique. Where’d he come up with that notion?
Regards,
Good posts David W. and David P.
AIMNY- David
P’s thesis was quite clear and clearly expressed. This aint a lit class.
David P’s thesis wasa bit hard on chi sao- but then probably applicable to a lot of chi sao. You dont roll or stick in a real fight
but good chi sao teaches very important timing skills for damage control. David P’s remarks apply more IMO to mechanical chi sao.
And, beimo in the US today could lead to jail time.
joy chaudhuri
What matters jail time when honor is at stake. 
David Peterson
Thanks for your contribution… that was one of the best posts I’ve read on this forum. A post I’ve cut’n’pasted to use as a little reminder every now and then.
Duncan
Perhaps i did not make myself clear enough.ive been in fights before,ive been punched,kicked,scratched,pushed,spat on,the whole deal.even been a pub fight where the fear factor was higher than
you can imagine.so what do i do,retreat,nope i look about for something that in the future gives me a good chance.
from the fights ive been in, two looked like they could have helped,wing chun and bjj.i liked waht i heard about wing chun and i m on the edge of trying it out.then boom,i read the glover article.it depessed me because the art i thought was going to be wothwhile me putting in some hours,seemed to have major holes in it.AND the guy trained with bruce lee.so in otheword the rug as pulled from under me.it seemed to say in a very clever way,that a,hes never seen a wc guy who could make it work,and b,it only useful against its own style.so yes,that as semi depessing,cn you see my point at all?
so all i anted was for some wc person to say,“no actually,train hard,get a good tacher,and the next time some loser starts trouble youll give as good as you get”.
i have a lot of heart guys,but just dont want to wate my time
and maybe get hurt one day,you see?
Redd asks:What matters jail time when honor is at stake.
<VBG> Honor you say?
Our local sheriff whose hospitality I have avoided thus far has
notorious “vistors” quarters even before conviction which is known as
“tent city”-really has people on uncomfortable cots in open tents even in winter- gives gruel in the morning and a bologna sandwich for lunch- has the people wearing pink underwear and then takes them out for “organized” litter/garbage pick up patrols. His isolation wards melts alot of tough guy’s honor. There is more.(Supposedly an accident- taping client lawyer coversations). You can write a book- he has written one.
Occasionally the county settles lawsuits… specially on one case where the victim of his correctional system died choking and there were cattle prod marks on his body.Unfortunately, for the county- the victim was the son of a prominent person.
He is one of the most popular politicians in the state. All kinds of candidates for office seek his endorsements. Go figure the public mind.
Wing chun was and is a very serious art. Even the roof top fights
devolved from the real life and death stuff of earlier periods.
Chi sao is not essentially pit pat though it often is. Like any instruments the conditions are the key- you can test for root, mobility, speed, timing, pressure, attacking, defending, …you name it-
if you know what you are doing in the test:conditions make the difference in testing. You can gor sao with control and test against different styles with control..
So- I agree in part and disagree in part with David P’s post.(I agree with him by the way that doing wing chun only for health- misses the art). But-
You dont drop an atom bomb every day to see if it works.
Hi David (nice to see someone actually using their real name!),
David Peterson wrote:
When Jesse says that Chi Sau doesn’t work in a fight, he’s RIGHT, because the way in which most WC practitioners apply it means that it can’t be effective. You don’t fight your opponent with Chi Sau, …you USE the skills, reflexes and flexibilty that Chi Sau is meant to develop in order to HIT the other guy, not to “stick” with him or “chase” his hands. Chi Sau, like all the drills, techniques, concepts and forms in WC are a means to an end, NOT the end itself. DP
I agree wiht you that one doesn’t do chi sao - which is a drill (and there are no “combat ready” drills – if there were, they’d be combat! ) - in a fight and I also agree with you that what we really derive from those drills are certain specific skills that we use to fight. However to expand on your point, I also think that those skills aren’t limited to, nor is their object to, merely “HIT the other guy”. Rather, I think our goal is to seek to control the fight (via controlling the opponent) and end it expeditiously (whether the means is a strike or some other tool). And I think “sticking” is a method that does have its place, and an important one, in fighting (otherwise we wouldn’t need to learn it) but just that we need to understand the ‘when and where’. TN
Terence
Originally posted by captain
AND the guy trained with bruce lee
ugh, comments like that just make me sad. it’s like bruce lee was end-all-know-all of wing chun. he didnt even learn the entire system, he modified and built on the little WC he knew. what does training with bruce lee have to do at all with knowing wing chun?
as to chi sau
siu lim tau + chum kiu + chi sau/gerk gets your weapon to have contact with your opponent, with a good line up.
biu jee + wooden dummy shows you how to destroy them once you have your hand there.
you can’t hit an opponent (using wing chun) without training chi sau properly. you can’t knock them out without training the dummy and biu jee properly.
what’s training chi sau properly? making sure you have a good lineup, making sure you take the centerline, make sure you arent chasing hands. HIT!
Originally posted by TjD
[B]
ugh, comments like that just make me sad. it’s like bruce lee was end-all-know-all of wing chun. he didnt even learn the entire system, he modified and built on the little WC he knew. what does training with bruce lee have to do at all with knowing wing chun? [/B]
Must be a coincidence because comments like yours make me sad also.
Bruce Lee certainly was not the ‘end-all-know-all’ of Wing Chun, but can you say without a doubt that you actually know somebody who is?
And perhaps Bruce Lee did not learn the whole system. Doesn’t anyone ever get tired of using this to excuse someone’s question or opinion. If you had read the article that Jesse Glover wrote, he was making the point that sometimes it is better to be outstanding in some of the aspects than to know the whole system and live in mediocrity.
What does training with Bruce Lee have to do with knowing Wing Chun? Jesse felt that Bruce Lee was an outstanding individual who knew his stuff and was without a doubt skilled and talented. Why do you train with your sifu? Is it perhaps for the same reasons? How do you know that training with your sifu will help you to KNOW Wing Chun?
Take the time to listen to what is being said. Don’t dismiss the message just because you saw the name Bruce Lee in it. The mention of his name is not an automatic disqualifier.
Just my 2 cents…anyone got change? 
Kevin
i didnt dismiss the message, i just think that people tie bruce lee too close to wing chun, sure he was a good fighter, and a popular celebrity, but of the years he studied martial arts, many many more were spent developing his own style, than in training wing chun.
it’s like someone holding me up as an authority on kickboxing if i did kickboxing for 3 years, then switched to wing chun for the next ten. could i fight? i’d sure **** well hope so. would i be a kick boxer? no, i’d be a wing chun man
as to why i train with my sifu, i’ve seen my ability rapidly increase since the day i started training with him, and i have nothing but respect for that and his skills. however, i’m not going to a kickboxer to learn about wing chun, i’m going to a man whose studied wing chun for many more years than i have
I respect that TjD…
But allowing some respect for Jesse Glover, he worked with Bruce while Bruce was still in his Wing Chun phase. I feel that if he gauged Bruce’s skill against other Wing Chun practitioners, he could with some accuracy see the gaps. It would be as if anyone of us were to ‘roll’ with another Wing Chun practitioner. We may not be perfect at Chi Sao, but we can still feel differences.
To my knowledge, Jesse never bought into the Jun Fan or JKD. He decided to stay with the path originally put before him which was predominantly Wing Chun.
And again, I respect the reason why you train with your sifu. But your explanations are the exact same reason people who have trained with Bruce use him as a reference point. As for others who did not train with him but lend him creedence to arguments…that is no different than a Wing Chun Kuen practitioner using Yip Man as a focal point - even if they never met him or learned from him.
But as to the original topic, I think that David Peterson was right on the money.
Kevin
i agree, david peterson did make some good points, however i’d like to just add one thing to that.
its extremely difficult for a person from a certain lineage to evaluate other schools of wing chun based on their chi sau. you need to know how it fits into the rest of their system. the different schools of wing chun out there can look extremely different - so you dont know nessecarily what their chi sau is for. some other drill or form or something may be in there to make up for what you think is missing. even in my own kwoon, none of us chi sau the same even with the same teacher- compare us to other schools and you may think our chi sau is horrible, however it fits perfectly into our system.
for an example, my sifu just recieved a homevideo of the ip man tong from our sibak (my sifu couldnt make it all the way to china for financial and other reasons). watching the demonstrations, some of the examples of chi sau, we thought to be horrible, while others we thought were rather good. same goes for forms, etc. to other schools it may have been the other way around - who is right?
i guess the only real way to judge is to either know the other system (which could take a lifetime!) or put your money where your mouth is and fight (which most of the time is not possible). i guess this leaves us in a bad spot
Pressure adds a whole new element to the game. It allows you to develop the central nervous system in ways that cannot be done otherwise. With the use of pressure and a heck of a lot of practice your arms and body can learn how to offset your opponents actions before you cognitive brain is alerted
Umm…I thought that this was how one used forward force in chisao? 
Indeed, the whole purpose of chisao. I’ve never trained anything without the essential element of “pressure”. Is he saying that WC people don’t understand pressure?
tjd,i used the bruce lee comment as a reference point,thinking like most, that he is respected,and therefore someone learning from him has some authority on which to speak.and still no one has yet to answer my core question about the usefulness of wc.dont forget,some people live in areas where its not.if i need self defence,but when.
captain- two important elements… your attentiveness, practice and courage-the other is the quality of the teaching. Make sure you have a good teacher. If you have one stick with him/her.If you dont have a good wing chun teacher but can find a top flight teacher in choy li fut- take that…or get good boxing and wrestling
lessons and learn a few key kicks as well- and work out with others for timing etc—you seem to be primarily interested in short run basic self defense. Bruce Lee cant help you- ultimately you have to help yourself. Honest.
joy chaudhuri
Captain!
I’m in the UK too. Where are you based and what WC organisations are near you?
Duncan