Don’t know yet if it is the hardest thing to learn but it’s up there. I know I need to work on it as well. I think the timing is the hardest thing at this point to get correct. The bong does corkscrew as it moves forward, which deflects the incoming force. You don’t necessarily need to stance turn but it helps if there is a lot of force or you are late, or something. I find that I don’t use it a lot in sparring/touching hands situations probably because of the timing thing and it needs work. In our lop sao drill, we have attacks that seek to destroy the structure of the bong by slapping down the elbow and punching or pushing the elbow(pak sao) at the defender. In both cases, Bong sao changes into Tan da with a stance turn. Hope this will help somebody with something.
By the way, one more question…should the elbow be above the wrist, vice versa, or not at all? I’ll start learning this properly in about 25 days or so, so then maybe I’ll be able to contribute, as opposed to just asking questions!
Thanks for helping clear up the Bong thing
BTW, does anyone here get non MA people look at them funny when you start talking about your bong? I sure as hell do. I was reading out loud the other day about bongs & my boss gave me one of those “looks”. I had to explain to him the innocence of my statements
Yea you should keep the elbow above the wrist, and also try to keep the wrist in the centre line, as well as remember to keep the elbow level with your shoulder.
Here is a bunch of pictures to get a idea, some showing incorrect positions.
Originally posted by hunt1 Both exceptions have weaknesses and should be used carefully and need proper footwork or body motion for maximum effect.
What are those weaknesses?
Im sure i am, other wise i’d be a master of wing chun.. and i am not. But unless you wish to point out what i am missing thats the end of that~!
Jeff…
What do you lead with when doing bong sau Teebas?
I guess you need to clarify what you men by ‘lead’ with for us to know what we are both talking about. If you artalking about where the movement is initiated…i use my COG.
One post I was writing disappeared. Alienofwar- your links to Francis Fong sites did not work for me. Marshdrifter- your profile gave enough info- to make a sensible attempt to deal with the idssues you raised. You may be doing the bong sao somewhat
in the Kenneth Chung way (via Eddie Chong etc). I respect both Ken and Eddie’s devotion to the art. You are likely to be doing the bong sao in a different way than me. Best to listen on lists but to
follow a good sifu if you have one. Sometimes the weaknesses of
doing one way or the other is compensated for by some other adjustments in a lineage and they may have legitimate explanations for their differences.
My bong sao is initiated by my structure. It takes a while to do that. Intent and An imperceptible move in the structure sends energy to the elbow and keeping the bridge and the angulation springy but steady the elbow then turns and makes a forward moving arc. The shoulder joint helps pivot the
bong but the shoulder muscles do not tense or playa major role. Keeping the bridge
steady but not tense maintains the angulation from my tan to bong. At the end of the motion my palms and fingers remain relaxed but aligned with my wrist and bridge. My elbow is slightly higher than my shoulder rotator(in the high bong rather than the other two lower bongs) and is also higher than my wrist,
bridge and fingers. The latter are pointing downward. My shoulder is relaxed and the shoulder joint is “open”. The whole motion sends the bong sao’s energy at the bridge forward. Bong sao
is not easy learn but when learned well it is a superb motion and complements the fok and tan very well. The three should move with ease from one to another. I am often reluctant to describe a motion- much rather show it. Descriptions do not always capture the motion and can lead to misinterpretations. Thats why it is better to pay attention to a good handson sifu rather read various cook books. Lists can give you an idea on how others do things- if you cant see them first hand. BTW I spell well but key poorly and the list does not have an spell check access and it is to much to go back and forth to MSWord. Cheers.
We tend not to use the high bong sao as much as the lower ones.
Other than that, your description seems to at least somewhat
similar to what we do. I was just trying to tie in the stance into
the picture. It’s just difficult to tie that in and then just say that
we should never have to use it that way, because the of the
natural turning aspects between the three motions.
That, and you may have jogged my memory about how I actually
use bong sao. There’s a lot of little details in there and sometimes
it’s hard to formulate. The problem with trying to discuss
techniques in wing chun is that in order to do it correctly, you
have to tie in all the aspects, such as stance, movement, etc. This
requires more verbosity than I’m usually willing to give.
Position infers static. The bong sau’s use is inheritly a movement because of the way it works…ie force is recieved, then relocated (away from directly affecting me, to a more favourable position that is musch less favoutrable to them, result = if tence, loss of balance. Re-position of their intent with out them realising till its too late!). -
If you adhere to the idea that bong sau is a position then the formantion of this ‘position’ will result in direct competion of who has the greater strength. WC is designed to be able to deal with stronger opponents, therefore taking the force head on is not following the nature of it’s principles.
If you take a photo of someone performing a bong sau i would not say that what we are looking at is a bong sau, but rather a phase of the bong sau movement.
COG use… well that relates back to structure. If complete relaxation is achieved and the linking of each body part comes together as one (body as a cohesive mass into one unit) you can use the mass of all parts of your body to perform any/all movement (big advantage over using muscle), through the main control of your COG (1 thing [cog] controlling 1 thing [linked body into 1 piece]). What you see is not always what you get! ie physical or seen movement is not apparant but movement can still occur.
weaknesses-the more posts i read the less reason to explain things.Bong is clearly not well understood.I will not say anything else on the weaknees of the structure i mentioned.To many seem to think leung ting has the answers.Those that change the plane of the shoulder in order to maintain bong position while performing a higher than normal bong sau what can i say the weakness should be self evident.
collapsed bong-do it without proper footwork against a strong punch and you will get hit.
As I always tell my students dont believe me try it and find out .To learn WC you must explore WC.
hunt 1 sez:As I always tell my students dont believe me try it and find out .To learn WC you must explore WC.
Given the near zero info in your profile about your background
I dont know what you teach and who you teach and this further clouds the meaning of “you must explore WC”. What do you mean… what have you taught which should be tried?
Just explore…
When in doubt, explore…
You don’t know the answer? You must explore…
How do I open my stance? Just explore…
How do I form my fist, sifu. Just explore…
How do I generate power, sifu. Just explore…
What was that question on another thread…? How do you know what is real? I guess nobody knows.
Many thanks for the posts - this thread has been an education. Lots to think about and much to talk over with my Sifu.
Yuanfen, sorry about the Randy Williams comment, I had no idea this was such a political can of worms. Randy’s a cheeky chap!
Slo Mo, I think we’re talking the same language regarding Bong Sau.
Perhaps my biggest error in posting, is not detailing my experience (lack of… about 8 months).
Many people post replies regarding techniques, movements etc, as they’d use them in Chi Sau. I post as I’d use them from a sparring perspective. I haven’t yet begun Poon Sau, and so deal with attacks from a gap, rather than a bridge, although in theory all concepts should apply to either.
Many thanks to those who answered my lengthy and poorly explained rumblings
