What is Bong Sau, when is it used, and how is it performed in application?
Re: Bong Sau
Originally posted by marcelino31
What is Bong Sau, when is it used, and how is it performed in application?
Fei Jan.
Apply it however you want/need.
Why bother using it at all. There are better responces than the bong.
/Cheers
Bong sao is often the second part of “two-move chisao,” whereupon both parties press their cases momentarily, then give up to start rolling again.
bong sao is not just a static position. Its a movement that covers various points in space. Let us discuss the rolling motion and the concept of the circle…
Nichiren says:
Why bother using it at all. There are better responces than the bong.
To what? …everything??
Why bother training it then?
I like Bong Sao
Why all the negativity around it?
Bong sao must be another taboo subject.
Let’s talk about Bruce Lee’s bong sao then! Or Yip Man’s or WSL’s or William Cheung’s. That should generate some discussion.
bong sau is a useful movement for use in both attacking and defending.
the purpose of it is to redirect and absorb force whilst finding a hole to strike through. it’s also very effective in upsetting an opponents balance and for subduing and pinning your opponents arms.
absorbsion takes away from the attackers ability to apply force and adds to your own force. redirection turns their force away. i’d say that it is attacking although those things in themselves are not actual strikes, they help to subdue the attacker and render him vulnerable and exposed to your counter strike.
using the attacking bong sau as an example:
absorbsion and redirection are not as passive as some people may think, they can amount to considerable aggression… imagine that someone takes an almighty swing at you with full on brute force say a heavy blow to your head. you apply the dai sau part of the bong sau movement to absorb and redirect the incoming force. the attackers arm is redirected, however with their commitment of brute force their shoulder keeps travelling in the same striking direction and it gets wrenched out of it’s socket and dislocated as the arm travels in a different direction.
why would their shoulder keep travelling forward? if you don’t absorb, the muscle reflex of a clashing force will cause a withdrawal of the strike upon feeling pain (as in a hard block). with your absorbsion this pain is not felt and they continue trying to push through. the bong sau structure expands/redirects causing injury to their shoulder.
Quote:Why bother using it at all. There are better responces than the bong
Really?
Sure lots of possible responses.
But- if you don’t master bong sao and it’s many applications-- you dont come close
to understanding wing chun.
Bong sao is everywhere – it’s the bread and butter of Wing Chun when the other hand is added.
bong sao…move of genius…i stopped a palm jab to my
face with the simple gentle raising of the bong..
russ
Re: Bong Sau
What is Bong Sau?
Bong sao means “wing arm”. Legend says that the creator of WC got the idea of bong sao after seeing a crane & a snake fight. The crane uses its wings to deflect the snake’s strikes.
When is it used?
It is used to deflect an incoming strike.
And how is it performed in application?
It is performed/executed very much like a crane using its wings to deflect the snake’s strikes.
Disclaimer: I’ve never seen a crane & a snake fight. The info given above is based on the “legend”.
Re bong sao
When is it used?
It is used to deflect an incoming strike.
By no means limited to just that function IMHO.
Yuanfen says:
By no means limited to just that function IMHO.
here here
Its a bully and a prostitute all in one. Excuse my lame attempt at using metaphors. I did in fact get an ‘E’ in high school English.
ahem! A bully and a lover maybe?
Bong Sao
Hello Miles, my friend!
I also used to do bong sao with elbow above the wrist. For example, In TWC bong sao is always performed with The elbow above the wrist. The actual motion in application always uses a wusao (or tan sao) protecting hand close to the bong sao to support it. This is a mistake, why use two hands to do the job of one? And also with two arms so close together it is quite easy to trap them. A high held elbow as used in TWC has no chum lik and you can pin it (lift it up) from underneath.
Bong sau is a movement, not a position! it’s often mistaken as a defensive manouver when in fact it is an attacking one. Master Tsui shin tin’s bong sau does finish at shoulder height, it doesn’t raise the elbow above the wrist. Raising the elbow above the wrist results in strain to the shoulder and creates a sideways flapping kind of chicken wing movement of the elbow. The elbow should always drive forward into the wrist throughout the movement. In lap sau (wu/bong), the wu sau arm should be clear of the bong sau arm.
The movement of bongsao should drive forward and not lift up.
The movement is like a spiral and the energy I like to desribe it as a drilling type of energy. Many times when doing chi sao for example if someone presses down on your tan sao with their fook sao and you are doing the drill going from tan to bong some people will have a tendency to lift the bong by raising the elbow above the wrist. This will put to much pressure on the shoulder (scapula) and is simply a force vs force contest which is not the point of doing bong sao. The proper way if you get force on the tan sao is to roll the energy foward and away from you. The opponent’s hand is inside your circle when you are in tan sao and when you transistion to bong sao their energy and force is moved to the outside of your circle. The more force they apply on your arm while your are transitioning between tan sao and bong sao the easier it will be to upset their balance.
The fingers pointing to the opponent determines the direction your energy will travel into the opponent. By not pointing fingers at opponent (ie keeping them straight in line with wrist) your energy is directed away from the opponent. Fingers pointing toward opponent will allow you easily to unbalance opponent when you step forward and with body mass behind your movement.
Many people think bong sao is just a defensive movement. Meaning avoid doing it unless you have to. I think that bong sao can be used in a very offensive manner. To drive into and unbalance the opponent. This forward motion of the bong is trained especially in the third section of chum kiu where you step foward with double tan/ bong motions. You can destabilize an opponent structure by applying a two way force with the bong sao. One is using the foward moving triangle to crack through opponents bridge and at the same time to use the circular rotation movement. This movement is very hard for opponent to fight against..
regards..
For example, In TWC bong sao is always performed with The elbow above the wrist…
…Master Tsui shin tin’s bong sau does finish at shoulder height, it doesn’t raise the elbow above the wrist.
Ok I am confused. In this picture of Yip Man isn’t the bong sao(winged arm) above the wrist?
If so, isn’t it HIS system we are all learning and should be mimicking?
wcis4me asks:
If so, isn’t it HIS system we are all learning and should be mimicking?
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/images/steve_yip.gif
should learn from Ip man’s bong sao without mimicking.
I have no idea what the other fella is doing.,but it’s a diverse
world.
Bong Sau = elbow above wrist
Lan Sau = elbow and wrist on the same plane
Ding Sao = elbow below wrist
(based on Bil Sao)