I use a good jow and all but at class I have trouble sometimes “toughing it out”. Giving and recieving bong saus in drills makes a coward out of me quick. I have class Mon and Thurs and I try and let my arms heal up in between which means I gotta take it easy on the dummy too.
I’ve only been contact training regularly for 3 months now. I’m thinking it’s different for different people. I’m still waiting for my arms to toughen up.
What can I do to improve? Is there something I could do with my diet even? Should I give em time to heal when I can or punish myself and train hard. Common sense warns against the latter. My training partners say a little of both.
“Knowing is not enough; we must apply. Willing is not enough; we must do.”
Bong sau’s the only one that “bothers” me. Woo, tan, fuk can hurt a little on the recieving end after awhile, but I’m cool with that. I’m not a complete wuss.
It hurts right where the bone meets the bone. We don’t just lift the wing arm up, we spiral it forward, shearing the punching arm. Ouch! I’d say it hurts both when blocking and being blocked. When it gets real bad I’ll cheat my punch and throw a cross, giving him the the meat of my forearm.
“Knowing is not enough; we must apply. Willing is not enough; we must do.”
calcium suppluments will make your bones harden faster, also just keep doing that, there was a kid in my class who bruised easily, just keep training. also try icing your arms, ive never tried it but it is just basic first aid for swelling. also try taking some advil the next day, it helps inflamation. if you need to rest a bit during drills just go softer or try to redirect the force more. good luck
know yourself don’t show yourself, think well of yorself don’t tell of yourself. lao tzu
“It hurts right where the bone meets the bone. We don’t just lift the wing arm up, we spiral it forward, shearing the punching arm. Ouch! I’d say it hurts both when blocking and being blocked. When it gets real bad I’ll cheat my punch and throw a cross, giving him the the meat of my forearm.”
hey, i’m interested to know how you “throw” a bong sau forward. i’ve only learned the bong sau as a passive reaction to an oncoming force. is it done as a block? an active deflection?
Its all fun and games til someone loses an
eye. Then its just fun.
Sure,the bong sau can be a passive reaction but like all wing chun motions,it can be done pretty active!..Combined with some good angled stepping,it can become a very effective “countering attack” easily uprooting the opponent and destroying his structure.
Just look at it in the third part of SLT. It looks more like a motion than a reaction.
Yes,I know what you mean by passive reaction,
but its a double edged sword,we don’t knock
our bong-sao force against force,the idea is to intercept,not bang arms,then feel and redirect while appling constant forward pressure,the active attacking bong-sao can come when the way is clear,after all bong-sao is a deframation that started as a punch
The Bong Sao elbow should never be higher than the shoulder vertically, and neither should it pass your shoulder Horizontally or you suffer Fai Jan (flying Elbow). This also contributes to the bong’s weakness.
" Bong Sao, the best and the worst of techniques"
-Ip Man.
To strengthen the forearm, We usually do what my Sifu calls WC cycles…and the exercise basically starts with the two practioners in abduction stance, one punches..the other reacts with a bong sau…the cycle basically starts when the one who is in bong (still facing square), removes the intercepted fist of the other…the touch on the wrist should bring out the bong reaction…the practioner who has removed the fist continues to control the arm of the other with gum sau and the releases as he is about to strike but ensuring that he strikes into his partner’s Bong Sau. Start slowly then increase in pace.
In fighting or sparring the Bong sau should be very light however, as it is meant to be a deformative action…an Intercepted Fist…a fist deforming as the “Way is closed”, thereby allowing a counter even with the same hand/arm/elbow
I don’t quite understand how you’re hurting your arm while using bong sau as a defensive manuever. I would have to question the application. What kind of a punch is it?
Roy D. Anthony - could you please explain why the elbow in bong sau should never be higher than the shoulder? Curious as I was taught that the elbow positioning varies for different situations and applications.
[This message was edited by mun hung on 09-07-01 at 01:22 AM.]
If I had to guess what you were doing by the description, I would say that your arm forms bong and then risees to meet the opponent’s arm. If this is the case, the bong is being applied incorrectly.
Bong should only occur after the opponent’s arm makes contact with your forearm. His forward energy pushing against you should rotate your arm and your elbow should rise. Typically, the elbow should not go above shoulder height, nor should the elbow be extending very far from the side of the body. The bend of the arm should be about 135 degrees.
Mun Hung: To answer your question, if the elbow rises too high, you have a huge hole in your defenses. This is the same reason why bong is reactionary and not preventative defense measure.
Problem is, its not necessarily useful us all chiming in with how the bong should be, because we probably all do it differently due to difference lineages.
For example, I’m from WSL lineage, and we dont lift the bong at all. Bong is used to cover the midsection, never the face. The whole point of our bong is to divert the incoming strike sideways, so you can immediately hit with the other hand.
So, we would never get in the situation where the bong arm is getting tired, because the bong does not go against the force.
So I have contributed nothing. Nice one, Frank. D@mn. Back to sleep
What did the Zen Master say to the hot dog vendor?
Make me one with everything.
I was taught that the height of all arm movements can change (bong, tan, wu, fook, etc.) depending on your structure versus your opponents and can also vary due to the application you seek. The base structure of the arm comes from the alignment of the elbow versus an incoming force and is not only adjusted horozontally but vertically depending on the direction of force you are intercepting. So with this in mind, the elbow can be higher or lower than the shoulder. It all depends.
I think you should do your Bong Sao’s however your Sifu tells you no matter what gets said here. If you want to toughen you forearms get some Dit Da Jow and a Chinese rolling pin (like you flatten dough with) and roll it up & down your arms, or strike them against a sand bag or you could do it the old karate way and cover a stick in an intertube or some other piece of rubber and strike your forearms with it, going light at first and progressively getting harder. Some lineages have some drills that toughen your forearms too. Maybe some one could post one for you. A lot of WC folks like to tell you this will lessen your sensitivity but it doesn’t, unless you were to just go crazy and build up scar tissue.
I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers.
–Khalil Gibran
I belive that BKH has raised a valid point. One should listen to the instructions of his or her Sifu. However, this does not mean that one can not get another view from this type of medium. I know that I have learned from others here and taken some of those ideas to my Sifu and discussed them. Even if I ended up not changing anything I was able to grasp the differences more fully. Besides, it gave me and Sifu some nice discussions.
In my mind this type of forum is not really for “learning” Wing Chun. It is more of a way of opening your eyes to other ways of doing things. While some may not raise the elbow above the shoulder while doing Bong others will. This gives us an opportunity to examine the differences and help to figure out which is more efficient for ourselves. Of course one should have some type of foundation upon which to build.
The other big thing I view forums like this for is the developing of friendships. It gives all of us the chance to speak to others outside and inside of our lineages and share a common interest.
My biggest bit of advice is to always question. Ask and really think about how you do Wing Chun. Don’t become a slave to the art but become its master, to paraphrase the late WSL. Internalize your art so that it comes from you and is an expression of your own body and needs. Listen to others and accept what you find is useful but also be respectful of other points of view.
But it was changable. The forarm could be a little more horizontal than that too. I don’t see how it can hurt unless you don’t catch the punch and he punches your forearm.
“Spectacular immaculate raps massacre cats like dracula bats, I’m snappin yer back cos I’m attackin the wack, duckin yer rapid attack, **** packin a gat, the mechanic of rap’ll give you panic attacks with his Satanical raps.” - Guess who.
I did not mean to imply that a person would get bad advice here but that at an early stage of learning it’s best to do as Sifu says. Experimintation should probably come later. Also, so many lineages do so many things diffrent I have a hard time saying some one does something wrong (unless of course you are using your Bong Sao to protect your knees or something. ;))
I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers.
–Khalil Gibran
I’d say it hurts both when blocking and being blocked. When it gets real bad I’ll cheat my punch and throw a cross, giving him the the meat of my forearm.
