I know that this technique in particular can be very different from one lineage/school to the next. Recently while at the local school here my sifu asked me to give him “bong sau” energy with his arm in tan and mine in fook. My training previously taught me that bong can be used for many different occasions, depending on the placement of both arms, and the direction and force of the energy. So naturally (since i was on the outside of his arm, I simply punched from a flanking line) He told me it wasn’t “bong” energy. He said do it again, so I did it again…apparently wrong again…so this next time I simply pressed my fook down and foward (as if shooting for a center palm or punch) and he said “YES!” that’s bong energy! He then asked me to perform bong sau on his punch, and so I did, but I don’t think he liked the way I did it…
I always perform bong with the arm upper arm parallel to the floor, forearm pointing a bit forward so that the hand is further out then the elbow, with the palm relaxed and facing forward a bit…wrist directly in front of the centerline. Just like in SLT, If I were to simply drop the elbow I would be in a perfect tan shape. My “energy” (or at least what I try to do everytime) is that of a springy energy, wherein if the force being put on my bong suddenly disappeared, my arm would probably do a fak sau with natural tension.
This is how I’ve understood bong to be over the years. Now since I was out (from doing martial arts) from late 2001 till the recent fall season, I’m sure I may be a bit rusty.
As far as when to use bong sao, I tend to use it naturally only when I have to, should I not be in a good position for tan, and if the energy is coming on the outside high gate, and slightly inward to my centerpoint, with it pressing on my bridge, I will roll into bong and lap da (or some other variation) instinctively. This is still what I do naturally, I don’t care if the hand form is a punch, or press, or whatever, if I feel it then I do it.
What are your takes on this guys? How do you go about doing things?
All southern CMA are very strong in defense. In Wing Chuan both Tan Sao and Fu Sao, the elbow are both pointing down to protect the chest. Only the Bong Sao, the elbow is exposed to the opponent. It’s a short period of time but since your forearm and your opponent’s forearm are touching, your opponent can take advantage on your exposed elbow by pressing his other hand on your exposed elbow and then rotate your arm.
Chinese saying said, “Chuan Bo Lou Joe - never expose elbow in fighting”. So why Bong Sao exist in Wing Chuan but not in any other CMA styles?
That’s exactly how I perform my Bong sau: shoulders leveled & relaxed, upper arm parallel to the floor, round elbow, lower arm is further out and slightly downward, wrist slightly bent upward such that fingers are parallel to the floor. The motion of the way the Bong Sau is performed should be circular. It’s exactly like looking at your watch!
Unfortunately, I have seen many bad Bong Sau performed by many Wing Chun students here.
Usage: Use it when necessary (secondary defense) such as a strong incoming force toward my centerline. I always use it with a turning stance. The Bong Sau can either turn into a low palm strike or low fak sau underneath the attacker’s arm, or become a lap da or lap fak above the attacker’s arm.
I have tried many different shcool’s bong saus and have found that a foreward spiral works best. Think of the thumb edge of your arm as the dull edge of a blade and the pinky side of your arm as the knife edge. They slip over the dull edge and you twist the knife foerward so the blade cuts into them.
The elbow starts in a neutral arm position and spirals up while the wrist spirals down and out. Its more foreward energy than sidewards pushing energy as it would be if you were to say, elbow strike the arm out of the way.
The popular way of doing it so that it sort of collapses backward or to the side doesn’t have that jamming foreward energy that wing chun is so famous for and doesn’t deal with fast, light touch guys as well as my favorite method. Nor does it work as well (surprisingly) on the very strong or forceful people.
Chinese saying said, “Chuan Bo Lou Joe - never expose elbow in fighting”. So why Bong Sao exist in Wing Chuan but not in any other CMA styles?
((Wing Chun is quite unique.,in structural details compared to other southern hands. Bong, tan and fok are seeds for development purposes- they are not static shapes. What you grow from the seeds are applied in hundreds of ways.
A well trained wing chun person knows where the elbows are- they are not exposed.
If you think in static two dimensional terms- all kinds of absurdities can emerge.
Bong sao provides an important balance to the other hand just as the other hand provides the balance to bong sao- atleast in square bodied ambidextrous wing chun.))
I have tried many different shcool’s bong saus and have found that a foreward spiral works best. Think of the thumb edge of your arm as the dull edge of a blade and the pinky side of your arm as the knife edge. They slip over the dull edge and you twist the knife foerward so the blade cuts into them.
((Not bad..though there is more to it— those darn training details. Small mistakes in training can make results miss by a mile.))
Bong Sau, like most techniques have a range. What about Go Bong or Dai Bong and the points in between?
Why are we trying to limit the hand so strictly to “parallel” with the floor? Too much emphasis on fixed positions for my taste.
I didn’t say my hand was parallel, I said my humerus was parallel to the floor, and the reason Im not talking about dai bong or go bong, or any points in between is because Im talking about the standard bong from the form. Obviously, in fighting, things aren’t going to be exact, and alterations/adjustments to form are going to be necessary at times, (lord knows Im a big proponent on not being a “robot” as Ernie says) but all that would clutter this simple review of the technique.
So let’s keep it simple, as there can be many variations to even the standard bong sao. Why not just review how you perform yours?
I typically will use this bong when dispersing or yielding to it, and almost always with a chor ma or some sort of turning step, pressing would follow, now on the blindside.
This method for sure has better forward energy, and I use it when Im not going to be turning or when I’m being more aggressive with my intent. Subtle difference to the untrained eye, but noticeable difference in feel.
I see exactly what you’re saying here. I don’t like to form it going back, but I do like to turn it (to gain the blindside - referring back to the first part of this reply), and have found that for an extrememly strong attack, that it works quite well (for me at least) thus far.
Sorry Van, when I say “hand” I’m not restricting it to the palm and fingers, I mean “hand” in terms of hand technique. So, Tan Sau, Bong Sau and Fook Sau are all hands. So, my error in not using the common usage of the term.
and the reason Im not talking about dai bong or go bong, or any points in between is because Im talking about the standard bong from the form.
]What is “standard”? Bong sau is used in all three senses, depending on which form and part of the form were talking about. In fact, that’s what the forms are telling us… IMO.
Obviously, in fighting, things aren’t going to be exact,..
Obvious to whom?? I’m not trying to be a PITA, but quite frankly it’s hard to tell what’s obvious around here, and what is not. Therefore I ask, because I’m often not sure what anyone’s take is on a given point.
That’s my fault Bill, I didn’t specify enough. Standard bong being the one in SLT, not from the other forms. And you’re right, what’s obvious to some may not be to others…it’s just my figure of speech.
Van,
Nobody’s “fault”. It’s just a limitation of this medium as far as I’m concerned.
The thing I see in your original post is that your sifu is asking for a certain type of energy, and we are discussing static positions. Two completely different things, IMO. You can have the correct end position, in a snap-shot type view of the 'technique" and yet not have arrived there in the correct manner. An that appears to be what he was referring to based on your notes.
I agree with much of everyone’s post, I perform my bong sau pretty much as Vankuen described it. Though there are other ways in which it can be used also. Against Wing Chun guys that like to chain punch I will often do what some schools call a “no-no” with bong sau, and that is to throw bong. Throwing bong into someone that is chain punching is like throwing a wrench in between two set of gears. Kinda jams them up. I of course do this from the flanking side, which is the area I prefer anyway.
Everything is 3 dimension and dynamic. When you make a move, your opponent will response and then you will response on his response and so on and so forth. Assume your opponent give you a right vertical punch at your face and you block his punch with a right Bong Sau. Since his left hand is next to his right elbow, it’s very easy and nature for him to slid his left hand under your exposed right elbow. He could then use his right hand to grab your right wrist and lift his left hand under your right elbow and apply an “elbow lock” on you. If we both are well trained and have the same speed and sensitive then this could easily happen.
The bong sao “energy” that Im referring to, is the type of attack/feel that would trigger the bong sao response. That’s what he was referring to. As far as when I did my bong, I think I was applying in places he felt I shouldn’t have (for example against a straight punch he preferred me to simply punch, rather then bong, the only time it seemed he would use bong (when I attacked him) was when I pressed his wrist from the outside gate, against the straight punch he would simply punch and use the wedge to deflect.
I thought maybe I remembered my stuff wrong, or perhaps I was applying differently due to my time off. That’s why I’m wanting to see what everyone else is doing, how…etc.
Seems that some of us are on the same wavelength, so maybe it’s just preference?
You may be correct, but this would also vary based upon your body positioning (you are speaking of Wing Chun vs. Wing Chun…right?). But this would also be very dangerouse for the opponent as he would have to cross completely over his center and almost to the complete other side of his body to do so. If I am reading your explanation correctly? If I am, he would have to be crossed up and under his own arm, and being that my wu sau is supporting my bong sau, he would be at a greater risk for a trap, through a lop sau movement. IMO
It is very easy to look at a static nature of a move and say that this could be done or that could be done, but bong sau doesn’t just sit this, it immediately changes into another shape, as all good Wing Chun should do…everything is just a transition in my eyes, up to the final executed movement (whether win or lose). I Like the term “snapshot” as used by Vankuen (I think it was Vankuen-without looking through the post again), I use this term often when I teach. It is easy to do something and then stop and think about what could be done, but in real time the bong sau is gone as quickly as it came.
To add to this description you gave, this is why I personally don’t (usually) use bong sau when directly in front of my opponent’s center. This put my elbow to close to their center (not directly on, but close enough) I usually am off set from my attacker (somewhat in a flanked position).
the only time it seemed he would use bong (when I attacked him) was when I pressed his wrist from the outside gate
I personally don’t feel the need to use bong sau if or when the strike meets anywhere above the mid point of the the wrist and elbow. Unless of course we get into the dai bong application, where as the punch or strike is usually not that low and tends to land closer to the elbow.
