An review of bong sau

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

Lan sao works for this as well, I use it to stop the straight blast to get to a blindside or just to trip up his flow and kick his legs. :smiley:

Try this next time someone does the chain punch train on you, use the lan and then lap da to the outside gate of one of the punches (moving to the side a bit), and then throw a tight hook with the lan sao hand. Works well. You can also insert a low kick either at the time of lap sao, or after the hook pretty easily. I consistently have used this very sequence against chain punchers, and it has worked about 90 percent of the time.

22

Wasn’t me who used that term this time. But I just got done with a group session, and told one of them the very same thing (but using tan sau as the medium). I would show it to him static, then slow, and then in real speed, the tan was only there long enough to deflect and then transferred into an attack immediately. Just as all techniques, they are movements, not ending positions, nothing stays.

23

Vankuen

Interesting, I have never used lan sau this way, I will have to try it to get a better picture of what it is you are describing.

I learned to throw bong sau into chain punches from my old Sifu, who by the way said never to throw bong sau. LOL!!! I had noticed he would throw it during chain punches and when I would question him (which I did often…LOL), he would say ‘do as I say and not as I do’. :wink: But, it seemed to work very well, so I adopted it. :wink:

24

Vankuen

Just as all techniques, they are movements, not ending positions, nothing stays.

Amen! This seems to be the biggest thing when teaching, obviously, you teach them a move and you may pause to correct a position or two…and in doing so it never fails, the studenst asked ‘couldn’t I do this?’ Of course you could, but more so if I just sat here in this position. :wink:

But at the same time, I never criticize them for asking, I encourage this…this means they are thinking for themselves!

25

Youknow who–
sorry- cannot relate to your scenario. I dont play tit for tat…in wing chun.
I wont just be blocking the punch.
Where do you get your ideas about wing chun?

Joy

26

Yes, that seems to be the case. :cool:

27

Joy,
You’ve been around long enough to know that there are as many views on Wong Chun as there are players. :wink:

[Edit] I should also add that I probably have a few strange ideas about Wing chun, myself..

Peace,

28

Not really sure which scenario you’re speaking of…but I don’t appreciate the condescending tone in that reply. You’re no better then the rest of us here. We all do what we do based on experience. And there’s your answer. If it’s the bong sao issue you’re having trouble materializing, then you simply lack insight. For every action, there is a reaction, it’s a simple as that. If you’re talking about the chain punching scenario and feel the bong sao/lan sao defense is odd, I’ll assume you can perform an individual counter for for each individual chain punch coming at you, and that’sgreat! You’re superman! So far I’ve yet to witness that, from anyone. Especially considering that chain punches from the typical student are coming at you an average of 4 per second. There are other defenses to the above scenarios, but were not talking about those at the moment are we?

My ideas in wing chun come from many sources…past and present teachers, friends in the wing chun circles, people such as yourselves, and most of all, experience. It’s not a game of tit for tat, and like anything else, things only last for a minimal amount of time, the time it takes to get the job done.

Again, you’re vague and condescending comments as of late (to everyone) have not gone unnoticed, neither does your method of impying things without having the cojones to come right out and say it. Don’t be afraid Joy, if you want to say something…just say it. We’re all adults here.

29

Wow, that sounded a bit condescending. :wink:

I can visualize what he’s saying. What he’s saying is that instead of the commonly seen bong sao wherein the attack triggers the same side arm bong sao (left for left, right for right) that someone punches and you (for whatever the reason) perform a bong with the opposite hand (left for right/vice versa). At that moment…in that “snapshot” the attacker could theoretically attack the exposed rib cage or use the bong sao to apply a wrist-elbow chin na.

To comment on it (directed towards “you know who”): It’s not a commonly seen setup, but not untrue either. In this example, the ribs are exposed. That’s what makes the bong sau one of the best and worst techniques in wing chun. It’s a great technique for deflection, but is not inherently strong and doesn’t follow the fixed (downward) elbow theory. But remember this about theory…it’s one thing to theorize, and and another thing to apply. If I were to actually apply a tan sao to your punch, you probably wouldnt even see it. That’s how fast things are going to be moving. Same with Bong sao, not as structurally fast as the tan, but the same rules apply, it’s there for a split second, and gone again. Keep in mind that in the time it takes for your guy to throw the opposing rib punch, it’s just as easy for the wing chun guy to bring the arm into gaan sao, or better yet, gaan-jaam sao (to cover the original punching hand), to whatever counter after that. But this is all theory really. No way to say what WILL happen when it’s all hypothetical in the first place.

30

Condescending in answering “you know who”? Not really. An honest answer .
I usually am quite interested in finding out the basis for someone’s POV. Hence I asked who he is learning wing chun from(if he is).

About the “off side” bong sao that he referred to—if one learns it well…footwaork and timing included- the right rib cage will not remain exposed— if the lines are well understood. The bong’s role will or should involve a microsecond- right then the balance of the person can be sufficiently disturbed–for all sorts of flow that do not involve much time.
Think of the mok jong motions— off side bong turning into lop da going outside then into the center— bong sao turning into gan or wu or fan on the inside again into the center.

Wing chun elbows control lines— including the elbow of the bong sao motion.Not theory- I show this things to people including invited guets quite often.

31

Its open to debate, but I think that out of the whole wing chun system, a correct bong sau is the most difficult to describe technique there is and also the most difficult for a beginner to apply effectively, wouldn’t you say?

(“you” being whoever is reading this at the time)

32

I’m sure anybody can recreate this scenario like this. It may be fun just try it by yourself.

33

Van,

without making things overly complicated, here’s the EBMAS perspective as I understand it-

-force on the wrist down or across the body= bong
-impulse to form bong is passive
-application of bong is not necessarily passive (mine isn’t. at all)

You can however, make the other person, make you bong, through a variety of tricks.

As to the structure and alignment- a longer discussion than I care to have.

What you’re experiencing now- we try to teach people to handle everything with the punch at first, and work on that idea a great deal, as it’s more practical. Of the hands taught, bong is taught later (SG 2 or 3), and de-emphasized as it’s so easy to do and so easy to do wrong.

BTW- your lan/hook is on ‘Dynamic Wing Tsun’ I believe. It pops up in our later chi sao sections in various incarnations, too. I personally find it very useful when a guy is shelling up- I shoot a man/punch, let it lan across both shelling arms to control, then hook tight if what I feel allows it.

Later,

Andrew

34

It’s a pure technique discussion and I try not to get personal involve here. It’s not “I use this to against you” or “you use this to against me”.

To me, this is not a debate. It’s try it yourself and draw your own conclusion.

It’s more fun just talk about the technique and don’t let “You” or “I” be any part of this.

35

Well hell, there you go. I actually learned that lan sao thing years ago just from sparring people that would choo choo train me. I didn’t know that the EMBAS method actually had it as one of it’s chi sao drills. Funny cause I have that video too…but I let Nico borrow it so I haven’t really looked at it myself. I’m not that far in this system but it’s nice to know that some of my normal reactions will be there later. What you’ve said about the bong sao issue pretty much explains why I got the reactions that I did from Nico. I’m sometimes hesitant to ask him straight out about things. It’s his class and I don’t want to risk seeming disrepectful to his teachings by questioning things. I don’t want him to think that I think I know better. It’s hard too because at times I really want to say things, and question, but most of time I stay quiet. You know what they say! “Better to stay quiet and let them think you’re an idiot then to speak and confirm it.” :stuck_out_tongue:

36

The basic concepts of a bong sao as taught to me are the following:

1- Relax shoulder (i see so many pics of people with their shoulders up)

2- Elbow leads the movement. If I were to exaggerate it my wrist and hand would twist up and down after the elbow moves. I exaggerate the movement to show people how it suppose to be, and then tell them to refine it into all one motion.

3- Your wrist should be on center line

4- Always have a wu sao (a guarding hand) up behind your bong. Also the bong sao should be soft and your wu sao should be firm (complying to the whole yin yang theory)

5- wrist is relaxed and your foreamr is slightly turned out for optimal skeletal structure.

6- There is a springy energy from the arm in the bong sao motion, it gives in a bit but always springs right back up which is focused from the elbows.

Now to break it down even further and reduce it to a really basic level we teach beginers that there are three things to consider when being attacked (three basic things that is). There is the quick jab, the medium over hand punch, and the big bruiser punch. On the very basic level of fighting your typical answers for these types of attacks are:

Pak sao for the quick jab, because you are not going to bong sao someone who is really quick and tossing jabs at you.

Tan sao for those medium paced punches (like a reverse punch).

Bong sao for those really heavy punches that come in at you with some comittment.

Each technique is structurally advantages for each attack. We teach this at a basic level to all beginers so they can get an idea of what the techs are for in combat. Of course this is just an example given and by no means the limitation of the technique. Sometimes if you break it down to the most basic levels you see it in a different light. Its kind of like the wisdom of a small child. Sometimes a child can say something thats so simple and you could not come up with that answer because you over complicated it.

The bong sao is pretty unique but not 100% exclusive to wing chun. There are a few other esoteric systems that use a bong sao like motion.

37

Which system? Do they exist in any of the northern Chinese system? Some northern system uses it for “baiting” purpose - to allow your opponent to grab your elbow and then counter it.

  • You expose right elbow to him
  • His left hand reach your right elbow.
  • You rotate right forearm clockwise and reach his left elbow.
  • You then bring his left elbow to your left hand.
  • You then attack him with your free right hand.
38

The TWC bong sau. Elbow higher than the wrist and wrist straight, not bent.
PR

39

Big differenes between the two pics Phil.

40

Yep camera angles. Both have the elbow higher than the wrist and BOTH have the wrist straight unlike most WC people. I can take one with the same angle as Yip Man for you and It’ll look just like the TWC bong sau. My main point in posting that picture of Yip Man is the straight wrist and not the “broken wing” commonly seen. Oh of course the Wu Sau is off center in one picture but my main concern was the bong itself.
PR