Oww!!! my bong sau hurts!

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

“Bong should only occur after the opponent’s arm makes contact with your forearm. His forward energy pushing against you should rotate your arm and your elbow should rise. Typically, the elbow should not go above shoulder height, nor should the elbow be extending very far from the side of the body. The bend of the arm should be about 135 degrees.”

hey chi kwai, this is pretty much how i learned the bong sau also, that unless our arms are somehow caused by the opponent’s force to form a bong sao(or tan, fook..etc), it should be a punch. i think my sihing once said that everything is supposed to be a punch, but it takes a different form when encountering a force. it’s good to see lots of different methods, gives me more options heheh.

Its all fun and games til someone loses an
eye. Then its just fun.

22

Thanks for all the replies.

As to my structure. I learned to drive the bong forward, it being a yang block and all, but not too forward. My elbow bend is the same in bong sau as in tan sau. My wrist is on centreline and I look to “cover” my opponents neck with it, meaning if I can see his neck, he hit me. In SLT, I “cover” my own neck. Again, when blocking, I don’t just throw my bong up. I drive it forward, shearing the punching arm of my opponent. We also “flick” the wrist a little, giving it a “whipping” touch. It’s that bone on bone impact that smarts after awhile.

I do everythimg the way my Sifu instructs, but I’m interested in others’ opinions, suggestions, and interpretations of the WC system.

The thing with the pain is its hard to maintain good structure when your bong or his hurts you like hell. If my structure is sloppy then I’m not helping either of us. Nevertheless, I plan to press on, train hard and adapt to the rigors the best I can. :slight_smile:

“Knowing is not enough; we must apply. Willing is not enough; we must do.”

23

P.S.

Its all fun and games til someone loses an eye. Then it’s just fun.

I like that. :smiley:

Sifu Randy Williams says during training, “Be careful. No fingers in the eyes… past the first knuckle.” :eek: :smiley:

“Knowing is not enough; we must apply. Willing is not enough; we must do.”

24

specific replies

i’ve only learned the bong sau as a passive reaction to an oncoming force.

To me, that sounds like its use in chi sau.

I don’t quite understand how you’re hurting your arm while using bong sau as a defensive manuever. I would have to question the application. What kind of a punch is it?

cho ma chey kuen

“Knowing is not enough; we must apply. Willing is not enough; we must do.”

25

Vertical Fist

Looks like you’ve already diagnosed the cause and effect pretty well.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR> I learned to drive the bong forward, it being a yang block and all, but not too forward. My elbow bend is the same in bong sau as in tan sau. My wrist is on centreline and I look to “cover” my opponents neck with it, meaning if I can see his neck, he hit me. In SLT, I “cover” my own neck. Again, when blocking, I don’t just throw my bong up. I drive it forward, shearing the punching arm of my opponent. We also “flick” the wrist a little, giving it a “whipping” touch. It’s that bone on bone impact that smarts after awhile. [/quote]

While this use of bong sau is not uncommon, it is also not universal. ‘Bone impacting yang blocks’ are not preferred applications of bong sau as I train. Bong sau would be utilized for redirection, controlling, and transitional movements, as examples. As someone else mentioned, we “allow” the bong sau to be formed at appropriate times.

An altogether different response may be more appropriate than a bong sau in the striking scenario as described. The ability to “read” and respond to the opponent’s or partner’s positioning, “intention,” direction and magnitude of force is far more relevant than technique matching (i.e., ‘Whenever you perform technique A, I will counter it with technique B’). IMHO, as long as our attention and concern remains at the level of “technique” much of the intrique, paradox, beauty, and power of this art will be overlooked.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>Oww!!! my bong sau hurts! [/quote]

Yup. “Been there, done that.” Hurts me just thinking about it. Some people have “bonier” or more sensitive arms than others, so individual mileage will vary. I’m not sure there’s much avoiding the pain and injury, so long as bong sau is applied in the manner and context you describe.

Regards and best wishes,

  • Kathy Jo
26

“To me, that sounds like its use in chi sau.”

yeah, thats pretty much how i was taught to use it. my wing chun is from LT’s lineage and i usually hear that its classified as one of the “softer” ones. maybe this is why.

“It’s all fun and games til someone loses an eye. Then it’s just fun.”

27

pain = wrong

28

The Elbow should never be above the shoulder in a locked out position as in the bong, simply because that is the way it is taught, and also coincides with Body Mechanics. you will injure your rotator cuff. Hope this helps.
Remember , keep researching.

29

Bong Sau

Well Well Bong sau pain=wrong yes yes bong Sau should be able to freely move in its join!never let it lock up by commiting or over extending it Tan Sau is bong Sau and like wise I can attack and strike with my bong I see a lot of people describing the dumping of weight I think this can be a cause of pain bong Sau is more dimensional than what most Junior practitioners think. I can use my bong hi or low elbow higher than my head but this is all relative to the situation but you can do it with out pain and with out damaging your shoulder incidently I believe I have developed some great shoulder muscles from doing wc wrong for years and only now in my tenth year am I able to do this I train 5-6 nights a week the best way to condition your arms is to not use pads suck it in harden up and learn to use your wc for what it is intended for human contact. By the way I also hit my forearms against door fraims and what not all this can be done with out pain and injury but I have whacked my elbows and **** many times just last night I whacked my elbow on a wall frame.

30

Height of Bong

Hello Sifu Roy,

Sorry to but in but I got to add a few things :slight_smile:

The elbow should be raised slightly higher than the shoulder at least during the forms in order to obtain the proper angle and structure. If the elbow is too low then you will have nothing to use for the incoming force and your Bong will collapse. However, the height can and will vary depending on the circumstance. That’s why there are different height of Bong to be found in the forms. Don’t believe me? Just look at the dummy and Chum Kui etc.

If you keep the elbow at shoulder height or lower then please explain to me what differentiates your Bong from say Lan. The force with the elbow level is different than that when raised. Differing energies=different techniques.

You are correct that if you do Bong incorrectly you can injure your rotator cuff but this would rely on using force and not relaxing properly into the technique.

One last thing, in none of the families I have been fortunate to train with could one mistake any of our Bongs for being locked out. Not sure what you are referring to here so if you could clarify I would appreciate it.

Peace,

Dave

31

BertyGerm

let us know how you’re doing when you’re 80 years old.

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Mr.73, You should look to your Siu Lim Tao, you will find the mystery of your bong sao and the correct positioning.
Regardless of whether you are relaxed or not, students will suffer shoulder problems when the bong is incorectly done, therefore the answer is also there. Enjoy your research!

33

Bong Sau

I always enjoy reading how we (kung fu brothers) use the same techniques in such different ways. But as bong sau was taught to me and also the way I pass it on to my students the elbow should never be lifted above the shoulder or head height. This to me for one allows for a greater opening of the ribs and other lower areas of the body, thus causing a slower response in dropping the elbow to defend against a low attack. I can also see some un-needed tension being added to the shoulder. Sihing-unless I am misreading your statement about a bong sau being performed any lower that it would collapse, I would only agree with this if you were not shifting while applying bong sau, but the shift allows this not to happen. Though I do agree with bong sau having high and low areas I connot see bong sau being used with the shoulder higher than the shoulder, I believe an individual should use maybe another technique.IMHO. The difference still between bong sau and lan sau is the angle which it is presented, even the way I perform it the bong sau carries that downward slope. I am not saying that anybody who does it differently is wrong, I just feel that it adds to any tension, which we in Wing Chun always talk about avoiding. Again, I think it comes down to natural body alignment. :wink:

34

Any bong sao, done incorrectly, can result in injury and be non-functional. Conversely, any bong sao (regardless of height or passivity) done correctly, can be injury free and functional.

When I learned, we had several heights for Bong Sao, including one high Bong Sao (Pao Bong or throwing wing), and Bong Sao that were both passive (responded to pressure) and active (bridge seeking or structure attacking).

Historically, it was said the high Bong was particularly useful for defending against certain types of South Fist attacks (see: Choy Lai Fut), in modern/western contexts, IMHO there are still angles and types of attack that high Bong Sao offers optimal defense from. (Big Note: you must have, of course, developed the flexibility and relaxation necessary to perform high Bong without breaking your own structure or becoming stiff - very common problems!) An example of this Bong Sao, and its training, are in Siu Lien Tao.

In personal experience I’ve met lots of folks from lots of lineages who did not agree with high Bong Sao and to the best of my recollection, all of them were vulnerable to certain types of head attacks. Perhaps 90% of the time these attacks aren’t encountered, but IMHO, WCK has tools to cover even the other 10%.

As to active Bong Sao, this can cross into the covering thread (sweeping bong sao can cover an area, vertical or horizontal and we have examples of it in Chum Kiu). Mid-level throwing wings can also be used to attack joints or smaller bones (ribs), once the Ging is developed (Bong Sao develops some nice Ging IMHO :wink: )

WCK, again IMHO, is yin & yang, and favors the center. When something is done a certain way, we can often look and find its match the other way 8)

Rgds,

RR

35

Rene Ritchie

I am just curious what example you would give for the use of pao bong (throwing bong). The reason I ask this is because though I use this myself I don’t use it in the high position, I use this against a very strong attack such as a straight punch. I do this with a side-step as I throw bong sau into the outside of my opponents arm. I also have found this to be an excellant answer to another Wing Chunner’s chain punching. I also would like to know if some people are referring to unlimited man sau as a high bong sau, I have seen Wing Chun practitioners use that terminology several times. If that is the case then I guess I do use a high bong sau.

I actually was never shown pao bong, infact I was always told not to ever do this, but would see my Sifu use it over and over against the situations I explained prior. And not until many years later I finally decided to adapt it w/the system I train after training w/other Wing Chunners from other Wing Chun families, who also used it. :wink: :smiley: :smiley:

36

high bong

Bong sau above the shoulder is crazy.Theres got to be another answer! :slight_smile:

37

High Bong

Again, if its relaxed and aligned, its no crazier than any other technique and when missing, again in my experience, the alternative is “ouch, ouch, my head, my head” or “we use something else but I don’t know it/can’t use it yet”.

At high skill levels, I’m sure an expert could use any movement instead, but I’m usually worried about what happens at my lowly skill level 8)

Rgds,

RR

38

Giving examples becomes a somewhat tedious exercise because behind a keyboard everyone can say “oh, I’d just do this” or “ah, I’d use that instead” and you really don’t know until under pressure, in real application.

Anyway, some examples would include covering when you see something coming quickly towards you head at temple level but don’t have time to ascertain trajectory. Recovering when your bridge is detained an your head attacked at the same time. Transitioning from a mid-level bridge when your head is attacked from the “blind-side”. Recovering when an attack already intercepted is re-powered and changed by the opponent (WCK is not the only system that can adapt from a bridge-on position, nor generate short power). To connect and break an opponent’s high-level attack in one motion. To intercept an attack coming in high from the rear-side. And others.

Rgds,

RR

39

my two cents

I’m having a hard time concentrating due to all the sh*t going on here in NYC right now, but here goes…

I still don’t understand how anyone can be hurting themselves while using bong sau. Does’nt make sense. I seriously question the applications.

As we all know (hopefully) there are all different heights and directions of force for the bong sau depending on the application we are seeking versus the force we are meeting.

The bong sau that I was taught against a straight punch is exactly as Dave mentioned - elbow slightly higher than the shoulder versus someone my own height. IMHO - much better structure against a punch of any worth. The whole bong sau would rise even higher versus a taller opponent punching down at you. Why? To protect your head - like Rene had mentioned. It’s easy defending against someone who’s playing the same game you are, but how about a real punch to the face by someone who’s not? I think you’ll be raising that bong high enough to protect that head of yours. :wink:

I find alot of schools demonstrating the bong sau against a punch that does’nt even reach! What’s up with that? Needless to say - there’s alot of quality Wing Chun out there!

Real applications yield real results. The rest is only theory. And theory alone will get you knocked out no matter how nice it sounds or how good it looks with YOUR partner. :wink:

Wow! I feel much better already! :smiley:

40

May I guide all of you to a Publication called the 7 Minute Rotator Cuff Solution, which confirmed the way my Sifu taught me Bong Sao. It gives a full explanation of how the rotator cuff has a direct link to elbow locked out positions, and height of this position being no heigher than your shoulder.
However, one may also keep the elbow at the shoulder level yet tilt their stance to have what appears to be a bong with elbow at Ear level.
However a Go Bong sao solves this problem quite readilly so that the elbow rotates and is no longer in a locked out position, which is the way my Sifu taught me. Proper Body Mechanics.