Oww!!! my bong sau hurts!

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
41

Sifu Roy Please answer

Hello,

You are really confusing me with your almost constant refereence to a locked out elbow. In the way I was taught the elbow was always bent so perhaps I am confusing what you seem to be saying with what you intended to say. Where, in Bong Sau do you find a “locked” elbow?

You told me before to “look to my forms”. Well, guess what? The Bong with the elbow Slightly higher then the shoulder is to be found within them. Apparently not only in my line as others do it as well.

I ask you again what differentiates a Lan Sau from a Bong Sau in your lineage? Could you give some more detail as to how you perform the Bong?

I may sound like I am coming down on you but that is not my intention. I really am having trouble connecting a locked elbow to Bong Sau.

Peace,

Dave
BTW: At what height do you prefer the arms when doing the Dummy? This could help me to understand your method as well.

42

Bong (Sao) Baat Ting Lao

Another point to consider follows the WCK (at least Sum Nung and Yip Man WCK cite this) concept of “Wing (Arm) Does Not Stop or Stay”. If tactile sensitivity is developed, I think there’s not so much cause to worry.

Were you to use a Wing Arm as though it were a Lan Sao (Barring Arm) I can see running into problems in certain aligments dealing with certain force vectors (IMHO, you can’t just talk about the practitioners arm position without considering the vector of the attacking force - you can cause a lot of damage to the shoulder of a lower height Bong Sao using certain directions and types of force). I think Mun Hung’s points are valid in this sense as well.

I also agree with David that referring people to Siu Lien/Nim Tao may not be especially helpful. While I’m sure everyone here thinks their own WCK and sifu’s approach are the niftiest thing, there is quite a lot of differences in Siu Lien/Nim Tao and people who can prove the various differences in application, so citing specific reasons and elaborating on specific methods will probably help everyone more, especially considering the nature of what a discussion group is 8)

Rgds,

RR

43

The bong sau can stop. It does not always need to move or flow.

44

The locked out position is when the elbow swings away from your center (ie. Laterally), within the shoulder line (ie. not Fae Jan)If you are in the slant back stance then the elbow in this position is alright and seems to be above the shoulder but is not.
As for a transitional movement, this is not an excuse for poor body mechanics, it only takes a moment to destroy one’s structure.

45

On locking out, tilting, and unanimity in WC [not]

Hi Roy.

Regarding the “locked out position” in bong sau: I am still confused about what you mean, as others seem to be. I have a copy of “The 7-Minute Rotator Cuff Solution” and still am not sure what you are describing. Are you by any chance referring to internal rotation of the shoulder joint, rather than extension of the elbow joint??

Your mention of a “tilted” or “slanted” stance, gives me pause to remember that presumptions about how WC is practiced often hold up poorly outside our own schools or groups, and especially in diverse forums of this sort. It seems as if you’re describing some type of a right or left leaning (rather than the motions found in closing of Biu Tze). As an example of differences, if I’m correctly interpreting your stance description, leaning the stance in this way would be considered a defect in the way that I have been taught.

I agree with your [implicit] proposition that the sets are a profound wealth of information. The caveat is, the things revealed to me when I do my sets are probably not entirely the same as the things you discover when you do yours; likewise for others. Still, I am curious - where in your version of the Ip Man sets do you find this slant/tilt body stance?

Regards and thanks,

  • Kathy Jo
46

Hi Roy,

Apologies, but I’m not following your “locked out” description. At which moment/point in Bong Sao does this occur? And does it occur during both a static (ie put your hand in Bong Sao and move it into position) and dynamic (spiral turn it into place)?

I agree transitions are no excuse for poor mechanics. My point (which I failed to make 8) is that Bong Sao can be attacked even when is supposedly mechanically sound positions, which is why we have that concept (Whipping Hand, in my experience Bong Sao can’t stop because if it does you can do damage to it, so instead it transitions to something like Lan Sao if it stays, which is more stable, or Tan, Fook, etc. if it stops).

WRT “slant”, if you mean lean back (head further back then the buttocks, thus the center of gravity broken), this is probably, IMHO, much more dangerous than anything with the shoulder since with the shoulder, you may lose the arm, but with the lean, against a seasoned WCK guy, you’ll probably lose the body. Not recommended IMHO.

Rgds,

RR

47

If, in your mind, the bong sau cannot with stand the contact, then your bong sau must be weak. It’s not as passive as you might think or apply it.

48

Whipping Hand

Sorry, am I to understand you use Bong Sao like a hard-style “bad karate” block–tense and rigid with dead force?

If so, we’re on different pages. Bong Sao, as I learned it, certainly makes contact and can be passive, neutral, or active (as I’m sure you saw me discuss previously), but I don’t advocate rigid, dead application (except in opponents, the worse they do, the better :wink:

Rgds,

RR

49

The Question I have for you Kathy Jo, WADR, is where in your version of the Ip Man sets do you find this slant/tilt body stance?
I did mention SLT.
It seems more and more obvious that many people do not have the right Idea of positioning in the Ip Man System.
Mr. Ritchie, seems to me that any position taken to extremes is unbalanced. How easy students try a concept out, using extremes and draw solid conclusions, within seconds. Just as many students having read and studied Bruce Lee’s system try a Wing Chun class once or even just observe one, and draw the same conclusion as Bruce did (ie. Wing Chun is limited).
This gives birth to lack of understanding of the system. Therefore gives birth to a limited version of Wing Chun.
Sincere wishes that this will change.

50

Hi Roy,

Just Rene is fine thanks. Good point on taking things to the extreme. I try to discuss as I play Chi Sao, always seeking the center and ready to adjust whenever needed.

I’m afraid I miss the point on Bruce Lee and I’m still not sure what you mean by “Ip Man” system. I’ve met KJ’s sifu, who has a very good Yip Man lineage and seemed top notch enough to me, and I’ve met and seen many from your lineage as well. Both are similar in some ways, different in others. Which has the right idea? Maybe both, maybe one, maybe neither. How do we know if we don’t explore?

Rgds,

RR

51

Roy can I get an answer

Hello Roy,

You are asking questions of KJ but I have yet to get a response to the several questions I have asked of you. If you are truly interested in sharing knowledge then please answer my questions so that I can have a better understanding of where you are coming from.

Where do you find a “locked” elbow in Bong Sau? I can assure you that at NO time is my elbow “locked” during Bong even when “swinging outward”.

You mention a leaning stance and I don’t think KJ was saying there was one present in her system. But, many students of Yip Man do have a slight backward lean, heck some people even refer to it as the “Yip Man Lean”
:smiley:

Perhaps giving us some detail as to your reference to the 7 minute rotator cuff solution. In other words, for the benefit of us without this publication, why don’t you tell us what it says and the application to Wing Chun?

At what level or how do you shape your Bong Sau when you do it?

What lineage do you represent? You indicate it is Ip Man, is it perhaps through one of his sons?

At what level do you have the dummy arms in relation to your body/shoulders when performing the set?

An answer to any of the above would be a nice place to start. :wink:

If you wish to ask questions then I would think it courteous to provide answers as well.

Peace,

Dave

52

The Yip Man lean?

My instructor learned from Yip Man and we definitely don’t lean backwards like that.

Roy - I’ve got the “7 Minute Rotator Cuff Solution” also. Purchased it when I blew my rotator cuff out while powerlifting 10 years ago. I think I know what you mean about the elbow being raised higher than the shoulder, but the bong sau application would be quite different in that respect. Please explain the leaning back you had mentioned in your post. This would seem like sacrificing good body structure for good arm structure.

And the bong sau can be as neutral, passive, aggresive, or active as you want it to be. Depends on the application or results you seek.

53

Rotator Cuff

Here are some links to learn more about the rotator cuff and the shoulder area in general. This may help those of you that experience pain in the shoulder region when performing bong sau.

http://www.scoi.com/sholanat.htm

http://www.boulderorthopt.com/faqs.html

http://www.kylepalmermd.com/shoulder/shoulder-full-04.htm

In my experience, the bong sau’s forte is in spreading out the force using both large and small rotation of the arm and forearm. It can be used passively or actively. IMHO, the shoulder and bong sau are structurally sound when receiving force from the front, but not from above. Against pulling force or a downward force, the bong sau needs to change by dropping the elbow or hand to protect the shoulder. Evidence of this can be seen in the forms. The shoulder joint itself is not a very strong structure and the rotator cuff is very small and prone to injury.

The danger, especially for beginners, is that the safest path for the arm to travel during the bong sau motion is tailored to our indiviual bodies and requires time to train correctly. Copying your sifu without paying attention to your body’s response can be a painful lesson. The best way is to feel and judge for yourself.

Dzu

[This message was edited by dzu on 09-13-01 at 02:05 PM.]

54

Hi again, Roy. Looks like I didn’t do so well, in my last effort to understand what you were trying to say. :frowning: Here’s to your follow-up question nonetheless …

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>The Question I have for you Kathy Jo, WADR, is where in your version of the Ip Man sets do you find this slant/tilt body stance?
I did mention SLT.[/quote]

I was taught not to lean - backward, forward, left or right - throughout SLT, or any of the sets. At least we try like the dickens not to, save at close of Biu Tze. Our preference is to remain vertical.

Again, may I ask what direction and nature of leaning were you advocating in your earlier posts, and where, for the sake of reference, it is to be found in your sets? Would it be correct for me to assume, based on your response, that you lean backward throughout your entire first set? My first impression after reading your earlier post was some sort of side leaning to achieve the elbow-higher-than-ear position in bong sau, and that is what I had hoped to clarify with you.

May I ask who your teacher or lineage is? Perhaps that will help provide a point of reference for some of us other readers. In case it is of any help for purposes of dialog and mutual understanding, I practice in the Leung Sheung lineage, under Kenneth Chung. Like many here, I have also had the privilege of exposure to many other practitioners and approaches.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>It seems more and more obvious that many people do not have the right Idea of positioning in the Ip Man System.[/quote]

Not sure what may have been intended between the lines here, but I won’t take it personally. :wink:

Despite the confusion, thanks for sharing your views, Roy. I think the lion’s share of frustraion is due to the challenges, limitations, and demands of net communications. Hopefully the thread will untangle for better understanding on everyone’s part.

Regards,

  • Kathy Jo
55

When you’re the skill level of Yip Man sifu, you could probably lean near horizontal and stand on one leg and still toss almost everyone else around. In my experience, when someone stands atop a mountain, you can’t always assume they just ran straight up. They may have taken a winding path and what they do now may not have been what they did then.

So, while some sifu may look like they lean in pictures or may even just stand around naturally, there might be a lot internalized already and its probably better (unless they’re tricking you 8) to do what they say, when they say it. :wink:

Rgds,

RR

56

Did I write “tense and rigid”? But at least the “dead force” bit is correct.

“When you’re the skill level of Yip Man sifu, you could probably lean near horizontal and stand on one leg and still toss almost everyone else around” … exactly.

57

Sorry Mr.73, I thought I did respond to your inquiries, locked out bong, as in the opposite of the locked in elbow of Tan Sao.

58

Kathy, my apologies, I thought that most Ip Man systems had a tilted spine in the Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma. Works quite well in chi sao in dodging head strikes. Properly done this position allows for one not to lose balance. As long as the head does not lean farther back than your buttocks. However there is a more specific position than this which gives relevance to the position I have mentioned, at no risk of balance.

59

Dzu, Exactly my point, thank you!

60

Hello Dave aka.73, did you get my answer?