Is Bong Sao the hardest thing to learn properly in Wing Chun?

[Nichiren]

yuanfen - In my experience there are more effective techniques to use when the bong is applicable. This is because the bong is a complex movement and is often countered. I don’t say that I never use the bong but I try to minimize the use of it. Maybe this is because I know my bong suck and I’m working on improving it. I like to roll my bong into a backfist and I like to use it offensively. As a defensive tool, e.g. turning and counter a bigger guy, I find it leaving to many oppenings, especially against skilled opponents.

I don’t think it is a technique issue as much as an individual issue. Some techniques are favored by some guys and v.v.

[Marshdrifter]

Re: Bong Sau “is” hard to learn

Originally posted by black and blue
I believe bong sau is the hardest of the three main movements to learn (bong, fook, tan).

On the gross ability level, I think it’s the easiest, but once you
get down to the little subtle details fo the three moves, I think
you may be right. I’m finding I have trouble in some cases getting
the bong sao “just right.” Just need to practice it more, most
likely.

The arm meets the attacking arm with a corkscrewing action and collapses on pressure. The more pressure used against you the more you collapse. For this to work you must be relaxed, which would be hard if you were trying to meet the attack using a karate-style action (ie. forcing the blow away with strength alone).

Collapses? How do you mean “collapses?” Are you refering to the
redirection here, or something else?

[black_and_blue]

Yep!

Bong seems easy at first. This is the beauty of WC - it all looks so simple, and in principle it is, but executing movements effectively takes soooooo much practice. “Easy to learn, a lifetime to master” and so on. I often meet with friends and spent time practicing nothing but “simple” movements, over and over again… I think muscle-memory is the expression used to best describe.

I find during class that what I thought I knew, what I believed I could perform (that’s perhaps not the best word), is not necessarily the case. Sometimes my Sifu shows me a technique/series of techniques, and it’s a revelation - you end up saying: “****, the feel, impact, weight of this application is so much better than my own”.

Sometimes it’s a case of learning all over again.

Collapse

When I say collapse, I mean fold. The arm meeting the attacked absorbs the forward pressure and using the motion found in Bong Say, folds back. Like I said, the degree to which your arm folds/collapses is entirely dependent on the pressure from your opponent, and whether you need to turn - or even retreat.

When my Sifu uses Bong Sau against my attack, it often feels as though there is hardly any contact between our arms. His arm is very relaxed, absorbs the energy of my attack by collapsing, and before it know it… WHACK! I’m the victim of lap and fut sau.

He’s incredibly fast… largely because he holds no tension and seems to read my motions before I’ve even thought of what attack to use!!! His bong sau is the stuff of my dreams

For anyone reading this… NO! It wasn’t supposed to sound ****EROTIC!!! I respect my Sifu, I don’t love him

[yuanfen]

Nichiren- bong sao is not primarily a technique. It is a foundation motion- lots of things emerge from the bong sao various kuen, sao, kwan, jeung, qin na and other goodies- depends on instruction and skill levels.

Black and blue- even with the modified description that you gave.. “collapsing” is not a an action that I would associate with bong sao.

[Marshdrifter]

Re: Yep!

Originally posted by black and blue
Collapse

When I say collapse, I mean fold. The arm meeting the attacked absorbs the forward pressure and using the motion found in Bong Say, folds back. Like I said, the degree to which your arm folds/collapses is entirely dependent on the pressure from your opponent, and whether you need to turn - or even retreat.

When my Sifu uses Bong Sau against my attack, it often feels as though there is hardly any contact between our arms. His arm is very relaxed, absorbs the energy of my attack by collapsing, and before it know it… WHACK! I’m the victim of lap and fut sau.

So, your bong sao moves towards your body as you absorb
the energy? This isn’t anything like the way we do it. The way
I was taught to have a bong sao is to lines up the structure so
if someone were to push on it and you didn’t redirect the energy,
that person’s energy would travel through your structure and
towards the ground. However, if you’re relaxed and sensitive,
that ability is (paradoxically, I know) rarely needed. The bong
sao becomes a much more transitional position where the energy
is redirected.

[old_jong]

It seems there are as many interpretations of bong sau as there are families of Wing Chun. We could maybe say the same thing for all wing chun motions!..It is useless to say things like “Si-Fu sez…or my way is…or your way sucks…” The important thing is; Does it works for real? Can you use it?.
Let’s not be so rigid.Variations can exist and be valid ones so…If a variation really sucks ,the user will surely find it out for himself someday!

[black_and_blue]

Hi yuanfen

Do you train from the Augustine Fong branch of Wing Chun?

I ask because I once saw a Randy Williams tape (I believe he studied with Augustine Fong, though I may be wrong), and his bong sau seemed quite ‘hard’. It seemed to jut into the attacking arm and looked to hold tension.

Is this approach the one you use?

Does your bong sau flow with the attacking arm once you’ve bridged with the bong movement? Or is that flow simply the movement into the next technique? (I know ‘technique’ is an inadequate expression when talking of flow)

Just wondering

Following the idea that “Bong sau doesn’t remain”, it must move immediately into something else (elbow up would be too weak to remain), while to my thinking it means it should not be held as a rigid structure, but should ‘move’. ie. fold/absorb/collapse.

This is only my opinion, and I’m young to the world of Wing Chun.

It is interesting to hear of the variations in other schools techniques. People often talk about the problems in WC that derive from different approaches, but I love the variety - too many chefs don’t spoil the WC broth!, as the saying goes

[black_and_blue]

Marshdrifter

Marshdrifer says:

“The way I was taught to have a bong sao is to lines up the structure so if someone were to push on it and you didn’t redirect the energy, that person’s energy would travel through your structure and towards the ground. However, if you’re relaxed and sensitive, that ability is (paradoxically, I know) rarely needed.”

This confuses me a little. Jesus, I have a lot to learn

If someone pushed hard on your Bong Sau and you didn’t redirect it, if you arm is relaxed and holding no tension, it would have to fold, wouldn’t it? I’m assuming you’re face on to your opponent but moving to the side. To absorb the energy through your structure against a hard push, that structure (of bong) would have to be tense?

Any ideas? These forums can be frustrating. You really need to see/feel a technique/movement to understand it. A travelling band of WC instructors is what we need (well, what I need).

[whippinghand]

Nichiren, a simple exercise

If you want to improve your bong sau, pick the biggest guy in your class to chi sau, and ever time you bong, step forward with it, moving him back with only that movement. Don’t do any other movements except for the rolling.

You’ll find out where your weakness lies.

[hunt1]

black and blue-does your Sifu draw upon Yip Chuns teachings?

Bong above shoulder-The basic bong has a position with elbow above the wrist once you begin to bong past shoulder height this position begins to change to either lan bil or if from the mainland ding.The exceptions use either a Leung Ting type of back leaning body structure or draw upon the bil jee bong concepts.Both exceptions have weaknesses and should be used carefully and need proper footwork or body motion for maximum effect.

Bong for defense- Bong can be very offensive in nature depending upon intent and energy used.All wc movements have a dual nature bong is no exception.

[whippinghand]

Re: Hi yuanfen

Originally posted by black and blue
I ask because I once saw a Randy Williams tape (I believe he studied with Augustine Fong, though I may be wrong), and his bong sau seemed quite ‘hard’. It seemed to jut into the attacking arm and looked to hold tension.
Oh oh…

[Marshdrifter]

Originally posted by old jong
It seems there are as many interpretations of bong sau as there are families of Wing Chun.

Indeed!

We could maybe say the same thing for all wing chun motions!..It is useless to say things like “Si-Fu sez…or my way is…or your way sucks…”

It is useless to say “your way sucks,” but talking about how my
way differs from another persons way, or how my Sifu teaches me in
a different manner, helps for us to understand those differences. When a certain person talks about the problems they have with,
say, a bong sao, we can then understand the nature of the
problems as well as the ideal that they strive to meet (and fail,
thus creating those “problems”).

There is a lot of variation in Wing Chun, and some people do it
in a way that, at the school I attend, would be considered
“wrong.” This is not to say that they couldn’t do it that way, or
even that they shouldn’t (providing they don’t attend the same
school ). I have no problem being told that, according to
another school’s method of doing Wing Chun, what I do is
considered wrong provided they tell me why. I know (for the most
part) what is considered correct at my school and if, because of
something someone says on this bbs, I’m unsure about my
understanding of Wing Chun, I can always ask my Sifu or Sihing.

This is how I use this forum to learn. It makes me think and
evaluate my understanding. This is how intelligent discourse
works.

The important thing is; Does it works for real? Can you use it?.

This can be a good rule of thumb, but it does has limits and I see
it cross those limits quite a bit. I have friends who do boxing,
jiujitsu, muay thai, and ninpo. Do these things work? Yes. Can I
use some of their stuff to make me a better fighter? Most likely.
Is what I do at that point still Wing Chun? Um… perhaps. It
depends on whether I’m still following the Wing Chun principles
as taught by my school. If I start using a non-Wing Chun stance,
it’s not a Wing Chun stance (and, thus, not Wing Chun). It doesn’t
matter if it makes me a better fighter.

:rolleyes:

Ok, I’m ranting way too much here. I need to go back to lurking
mode.

[Marshdrifter]

Re: Marshdrifter

Originally posted by black and blue
Marshdrifer says:

“The way I was taught to have a bong sao is to lines up the structure so if someone were to push on it and you didn’t redirect the energy, that person’s energy would travel through your structure and towards the ground. However, if you’re relaxed and sensitive, that ability is (paradoxically, I know) rarely needed.”

This confuses me a little. Jesus, I have a lot to learn

Don’t we all? After all this discussion, I’m hoping I get a good long
opportunity to do nothing but play with my bong sao in class.

If someone pushed hard on your Bong Sau and you didn’t redirect it, if you arm is relaxed and holding no tension, it would have to fold, wouldn’t it? I’m assuming you’re face on to your opponent but moving to the side. To absorb the energy through your structure against a hard push, that structure (of bong) would have to be tense?

Ok, I may still be too tense, but I’m going to go with “no” on this
one. If your bong sao structure is correct, the structure itself
moves the energy to the ground. It’s really hard to explain
without demonstrating it in person.

I think that a lot of places confuse being relaxed with being
floppy. Think of it this way. If you’re relaxed, do you slouch over?
No, because you’re maintaining good structure. It’s the same
thing with bong sao.

As an aside, one of the biggest problems I see with the beginning
students at our school is that if you tell them to relax, they’ll
slouch and destroy their own structure. :eek:

Any ideas? These forums can be frustrating. You really need to see/feel a technique/movement to understand it. A travelling band of WC instructors is what we need (well, what I need).

Heh. When I’m a bit better (and perhap a bit richer, or at least
less poor), I’d like to travel around and visit other schools. That
way, I’ll really mess up my own mind.

My advice with forums is to take everything with a bit of salt, try
to apply what you read towards what you know from class, and
when in doubt defer to the Sifu. There are a lot of different ways
of doing Wing Chun out there and it’s best to do it the way your
Sifu wants.

[black_and_blue]

Yes - Hunt1, it would seem so

If Yip Chun’s method is with “Bong Sau above shoulder - The basic bong has a position with elbow above the wrist once you begin to bong past shoulder height”, this is how we practice it.

Though I thought this was a universal way of performing Bong Sau at this height. If the elbow is below the level of the wrist, this wouldnt be bong sau. If it were on the same level, you’d be in lan sau.

I’m beginning to think I should stop posting on this forum. I seem to have caused great confusion Perhaps I’m just sh*t at explaining myself.

Help me Whipping Hand - I need your brevity!

[Mutant]

Bong Sao is Difficult, Complex & Important

Bong Sao is a key part of Wing Chun (and other systems, I also learned bong sao in Shaolin 5 Animals, it was found in virtually every animals handwork, most obvious in Crane, but took me awhile to recognise it as bong sao), its a transition, and without it I think the the other handwork, tan sao, etc, isnt nearly as effective. Tan sao without bong sao is like yang without yin. It is a fundamental body structure that is a key to wing chun. As for not ‘turning the wrist’ in bong sao, I speculate that if the wrist is not flipped and ‘turned over’ that the structure/trap is not set correctly, the fore-arm tendons are not ‘loaded’ with as much kinetic energy and bong sao would not be as effective. And conversely, if the elbows are not dropped into tan sao, it loses part of its purpose and affectiveness and is not the same. it is useful and affective against grabs, punches, etc., it works in full-contact fighting and self defense, not just chi sao exercise.
I agree it may be the hardest technique to perfect and understand, I’ve been ‘re-learning it’ for years, each time a SiFu explains it, corrects it, adjusts it, I learn a bit more about it. And I think i still have a lot to more to learn about it.
It is purposeful and important, don’t discard it.
Just though I’d add my tiny bit of understanding to the pot

[yuanfen]

Hi Black and Blue: You can see my website for details<www.azwingchun.com>. I teach wing chun, used to live in Tucson now live in the Phoenix area. Have been consistently developing my wing chun since 1976- putting speedbags and other play things way long time ago so as not to waste my time…though
one can play with them. I dont do rattan rings, brass rings either.
Yes, Augustine Fong taught me wing chun though my mistakes are my own-honest injun! My bong sao can be soft, hard or inbetween- steel bar wrapped in cotton as they say.
The person whose tape and hard bong sao you referred to is not claimed as a student by Fong sifu. He visited the Tucson school
for a little overa week, was name dropping without permission, ingeniously has had some joint pictures taken with Fong, attended several seminars and then developed videos(sponsored bya mag) of very poor imitations of what he thought Fong was about. I have attended Ravi Shankar’s concerts, talked with him- and his great and late elder brother(dance maestro) etc but you wouldnt want to trust me with a sitar though I suppose I could pose with one. The sounds would start an elephant stampede I am afraid or make mice squeak in terror.
A good bong is a wonder- springs within springs which can go through, control, cut, hit, block, control, throw, twist like a knife in melting butter. Watch good eagles use their wings.
Apart from Ho kam Ming and Augustine Fong- tsui Tsong Tin has a good one-. Catch one of Fong’s seminars to see what he and a
good bong is about. Fong began learning from Ho in 1960 and
Ho was associated with Yip Man consistently from 1956 till Yip Man’s death. This is not cooking witha cook book. But I speak for my self. BTW my approach to wing chun can be as practical as any so it is not just theory. I did careful homework on martial arts before I began my wing chun. If there was a better art- I would have entered their gate.. But the journey hasnt been easy.

[Slo_Mo]

Black & Blue I think I understand what your talking about

I don’t think that “collapse” is the best word to use but it is definitely a redirection. I agree with you that the amount of redirection is dependent on the force used by the opponent. The contact point stays the same as you redirect your opponents fist offline. The elbow is then used to maitain center line and to control your opponents elbow. From here you can use a whipping punch or step in with the elbow. But the key is to make sure tension doesn’t build up in your bong, which would allow your opponent to control you.

Does this sound similar to what you were talking about?

Oh yeah…hello everybody!

[hunt1]

black and blue

I asked because Yip Chun is the most prominent user of the collapsed bong sau.Remember that Yip Chun is very short and therefor has to rely more often on the bui jee bong concepts.This gives you a collapsed appearance and an elbow above the shoulder.Many instructors that have adapted this method have done so without understanding why and when it is used. Unless you are short it really shouldnt be often used.It is easy to do but many tend to neglect other more basic bongs.
As an aside I am 6’3’’ and I do use it at times but generally in an aggresive fashion.

[dzu]

‘Relaxing’ does not mean collapsing your structure. Keep in mind that ‘structure’ has many components that contribute to the overall result. The skeleton, muscles, ligaments, tendons, and intention all combine and align to create ‘structure’.

Try relaxing the muscles that are not needed for any given movment, posture, or technique. The goal is to do more with less.
Think of water passing through a garden hose. If you clamp down on the hose with your hand, the flow of water is restricted. Likewise, if you create tension in the muscle, the path to ground is restricted. Your structure is a vessel, just like the garden hose, to transfer external force to the ground.

With bong sau, a common mistake is to use the deltoids to ‘hold’ the bong sau up and in position. The bong sau has a natural position and doesn’t need to be ‘forced’ into alignment. It changes from that natural position when external pressure and force threaten to move it. Bong sau does not require a turn or shift because the external force shouldn’t stay in the body (which tension will allow to happen).

Dzu

[fa_jing]

Harder to learn

possibly, is the Man Sao. I might have the name wrong, I’m talking about the one that is like a gan sao but goes straight up. I’ve had a lot more opportunies to work on the bon sao, but I find the man sao difficult to execute and have never used it in sparring. Seems like a good technique, though.
Hsuen sao was difficult to learn too, the variation where you maintain contact, not the variation where you move away from contact.
Also more difficult than the bon sao: The unpivoted side kick. Perhaps because of my tight hips, also the mechanics are very different from the side kick I learned ten years ago in TKD.

-FJ