I’ve never gotten a satisfactory answer to this. So why is the bong sau not to be used as a first move?
Sometimes it’s the irrelevant questions that do not get satisfactory answers. This question is stupid imo, unless you have an understanding of ‘jiu sik’ and individuals interpretation of a ‘move’.
It’s all in threes if you ask me… :rolleyes:
Boang sau
I would use it first depending on the situation. It just isn’t a block you can’t leave it out there. Its great for an open relationship response to a jab. Boang lop punch.
Just my opininion. Try it and see, what the heck.
Don
[QUOTE=Lugoman;876487]I’ve never gotten a satisfactory answer to this. So why is the bong sau not to be used as a first move?[/QUOTE]
The first reason is in the execution of the technique. The bong-sau is something you roll into after being meet with the proper amount of forward pressure from your opponent.
The second reason is because Wing Chun doesn’t anticipate a punch like that. You’re opponent moves, you move, and what happens happens. If you get rolled into a bong-sau you get rolled into a bong-sau.
Has anyone heard of the three treasures of Wing Chun?
Bong, tan and fook?
In other words, bong is followed by tan which is followed by fook which is followed by bong etc. This ‘cycle’ is sometimes referred to as a treasure because without fully understanding and training these three key positions in such a way you may have no flow whatsoever.
Change the order to bong, fook and tan and something else is happening 
Both ways are a yum yeurng (yin yang) and have opposite purposes.
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;876490]Sometimes it’s the irrelevant questions that do not get satisfactory answers. This question is stupid imo, unless you have an understanding of ‘jiu sik’ and individuals interpretation of a ‘move’.
It’s all in threes if you ask me… :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
This is why I don’t waste my time here anymore.
[QUOTE=Lugoman;876503]This is why I don’t waste my time here anymore.[/QUOTE]
Ok. Point taken.
In your opinion, what is the answer to your own question? You do have an answer I would hope?
The Bong Sau is Never 1st. Why is that?
Possibly because the Bong is a reaction to pressure on your Jong or Guard so it will always be 2nd.
Or if you intend on throwing it out then it will be in transition from the Tan so it will still be 2nd.
No shame in coming 2nd 
The Bong can Shear,Deflect,Press or lift depending on how you wish to react.
[QUOTE=Iron-Man;876507]The Bong can Shear,Deflect,Press or lift depending on how you wish to react.[/QUOTE]
I wouldn’t personally box bong sau into these four concepts as tan and fook can also be applied in such ways.
Am I the only one who sees a ‘hook’ punch deriving from bong?
I don’t wait for any pressure to throw a hook, so in this instance the bong IS the first move. Although, thinking about it I have a bong lead jab too…
This is why the bong sao is never first; because no one really starts off with a jab or straight punch to the midsection, they mostly start off with a headshot
The bong sao structure in most Yip Man lineages doesnt cover the head, we have other blocks that will work out just fine, the bong sao will work wonders with midsection defense too, where it helps that structure work the best in that position as most wing chun forms dictate…
Ali Rahim.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aue6bIplPwI
Circa: 1:32
Circa: 1:47
Circa: 2:00
Circa 2:12
And I have many more using an attacking bong. I respect for what people
believe. But I will always use and teach what works. It’s just my nature. Now if someone can provide video where using the bong sao first doesn’t work I can give my take on why it didn’t.
Phil, the first two instances I can see have reasoning, the latter two, I didn’t see any reason for. Your guy seems to have a propensity for entering into range with the right bong instinctively…or did I not see it right?
[QUOTE=Ali. R;876511]The bong sao structure in most Yip Man lineages doesnt cover the head, we have other blocks that will work out just fine, the bong sao will work wonders with midsection defense too, where it helps that structure work the best in that position as most wing chun forms dictate…[/QUOTE]
Interesting that you mention ‘Yip Man’ lineage not covering the head with a bong sau. I’m not being picky here, but Lee Shing WAS from Yip Man, its just that he was an earlier student than most I believe. Have a stick crashing onto your head and tell me what ‘seed’ you prefer! :eek:
FWIW within biu jee overhead and head height bong saus are numerous, but hey I’m not here to tell you whats in what form as you’re a Sifu yourself and must see what I’m saying here, surely?
Lineage isn’t an issue here brother, it’s all in interpretation of what I understand as simple ‘rules’ for beginners to grasp. Rules that do not define our style, but help you on your journey.
Looking at other Martial Arts, and even in White Crane styles a high bong sau is the first ‘block’ students learn. Tell a Shotokan Sensei that their aige-uke or gedan-berai isn’t practical…
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;876522]Interesting that you mention ‘Yip Man’ lineage not covering the head with a bong sau. I’m not being picky here, but Lee Shing WAS from Yip Man, its just that he was an earlier student than most I believe. Have a stick crashing onto your head and tell me what ‘seed’ you prefer! :eek:
FWIW within biu jee overhead and head height bong saus are numerous, but hey I’m not here to tell you whats in what form as you’re a Sifu yourself and must see what I’m saying here, surely?
Lineage isn’t an issue here brother, it’s all in interpretation of what I understand as simple ‘rules’ for beginners to grasp. Rules that do not define our style, but help you on your journey.
Looking at other Martial Arts, and even in White Crane styles a high bong sau is the first ‘block’ students learn. Tell a Shotokan Sensei that their aige-uke or gedan-berai isn’t practical…[/QUOTE]
Maybe Ive should have bolded these words Most Yip Man lineages not all Oh my lord, forgive me if I said anything about White Crane!
Ali Rahim.
Bong sao is used if the line of your strike is X-ed, either spatially and or by contact …
IOW the strike is the lead to attack as your answer to the situation…I hit , you happen to have impeded the line of that strike..I dont stop to lop etc..I just flip the arm x-ing mine left or right [ as chi-sao] and strike with Vu-> punch..if its stopped I can jut …etc…lop is last resort if your delivering an attack, because it breaks the attack line your delivering…
“Bong isnt first” only implies we attack 1st by striking you, you then try to stop me 
..All the techniques we do are symmetrical so we can attack the side presented and ‘shut it down’ using the following strikes tan/jum… in rotation as required each trained to use the corresponding forearm angles while striking
We can use bong to clear head shots , it just takes a certain distance to make the idea function or we have to lift the arm up , making it a redundant gesture at too great a distance, chasing hands.
The difference with WSLVT and others I have seen is that the bong sao is used not to block but to maintain an attack by deflecting the force of the incoming line of force sideways to our constant forwards entry to attack, by striking…by chi-sao we maintain the right angles and mindless reactions to simply sweep the force off our centerlines ..the harder the force the more it moves …the more wrist force is used the worse for the opponent , ergo chi-sao frowns on using forwards wrist force for feeling bs.
Some label Bong sao’s High, Mid , Low…why not mid 3/4 turn etc…46 degrees west !..
Bong is an idea the arm angle is for the forearm to be able to ‘slap’ an arm away from our head torso , whatever. Its only relative to the attackers strike lines…
It can be first but only because its so fast the vu-sao is striking as the bong is lowering…the bong is only up to deliver the force of its displacing ability, not to jam .
If you analyze the SLT the 1st sections deal with primary strikes and methods to develop the 2 striking ideas…the latter section deals with 'sequences to maintain attacks by simple line clearing actions , all done in a partnership, bong is part of an attacking sequence to maintain the primary idea of delivering attacking actions…
A lot of the attacking is lost when too much chi-sao takes over as sticking hands , trapping and no development of strike lines and clearing lines , strike lines clearing lines , strike clear , strike clear…then we have each arm doing strike/clear in 1 beat, and the next strike /clear,…only resorting to a 2 handed response if the lead strike is stopped …ergo ,
bong + Vu-sao =free striking hand
jut + Vu-sao =free striking hand
pak + Vu-sao =free striking hand
huen + Vu-sao =free striking hand
etc…
[QUOTE=Vankuen;876520]Phil, the first two instances I can see have reasoning, the latter two, I didn’t see any reason for. Your guy seems to have a propensity for entering into range with the right bong instinctively…or did I not see it right?[/QUOTE]
Our fighters trained to try and fight with a parallel stance as opposed to a cross leg stance. In the first few fights they used the TWC entry successfully. When we got back to the ready room we noticed that the other fighters were watching the fights on TV monitors. We decided then to close with bong saos instead. The main purpose of these fights were to try and use specific WC techniques against resisting opponents. So yes,there was propensity for entering into range with the right bong. We wanted to test the bong close. If the opponent had been using a right arm/leg lead then it would have been a left bong. It’s common knowledge Lei Tai circles that the best way to get a knockout is to the side of the headgear instead of the cage. That’s why the guys attempted bong lop round punch. The bottom line is that our tactics worked very well. Common sense says if it works try it again. We’ll try different WC “techniques” next time.
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;876522]FWIW within biu jee overhead and head height bong saus are numerous …[/QUOTE]Really? I’ve got none. In CK lots but in BJ only a low bong/tan combo and only in one section (comprising 6 reps of the combo).
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;876490]Sometimes it’s the irrelevant questions that do not get satisfactory answers. This question is stupid imo, unless you have an understanding of ‘jiu sik’ and individuals interpretation of a ‘move’.
It’s all in threes if you ask me… :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
the only stupid question is the one never asked…you might ask yourself why you have so much more… AND flag waving in your school…
Sometimes the more there is… the less likely you will be to notice what is missing.
Bong…Fak/Fok Sao
[QUOTE=Toby;876681]Really? I’ve got none. In CK lots but in BJ only a low bong/tan combo and only in one section (comprising 6 reps of the combo).[/QUOTE]
Hey, Toby, maybe the movement he is talking about in BJ is the one that we call the Fok/Fak Sao in the Woo system. The pinky side of the arm is up but the whole arm is extended out but this one still stays at collarbone or shoulder level. I can see how that could be loosly considered to be a high Bong-Sao…but in the Woo system we dont. Fak Sao and Bong Sao are not the same in our system. As far as CK and other forms…the elbow goes no higher that the collarbone for the Bong Sao.
Maybe this helps.
[QUOTE=Graychuan;876690]Hey, Toby, maybe the movement he is talking about in BJ is the one that we call the Fok/Fak Sao in the Woo system. The pinky side of the arm is up but the whole arm is extended out but this one still stays at collarbone or shoulder level. I can see how that could be loosly considered to be a high Bong-Sao…but in the Woo system we dont. Fak Sao and Bong Sao are not the same in our system.[/QUOTE]We’ve got a lan sao, which looks superficially a little bit like the bong sao (but completely different intent). This would be what comes near the beginning of CK after the double low palm strike where you turn and do a double “bar arm” pivoting to 3 sides. The “bar arm” is what we can lan sao in the Hong Kong Yip Man style I did, it’s a horizontal arm out from the shoulder, elbow at 90°, wrist/forearm slightly rotated. What we call fak sao is different to lan sao. A double fak sao comes right after the last of the 3 lan saos, before the triple “arm break”.
I still can’t think of a place with a bong sao or lan sao in the two versions of BJ I’ve learnt (apart from the tan/bong combo I mentioned earlier). Both bong sao and lan sao are in both the versions of CK I’ve learnt. One version’s got 18 bong saos and 12 lan saos off the top of my head.
[QUOTE=Graychuan;876690]As far as CK and other forms…the elbow goes no higher that the collarbone for the Bong Sao.[/QUOTE]Yep, same here. We’ve got man sao (unsure if that’s the right term) that’s sort of similar to a very high bong, with wrist higher than elbow higher than collarbone but it’s a different move (and I don’t really train it much - I’ve got different moves that I’d prefer in most cases).