[QUOTE=TenTigers;1138782]“Two things:
Wall bag training can be used for iron palm. It’s not the dropping method, or even the palm that makes it iron palm, but the concept. Iron palm is just the term.
2- Duncan Leung, Alan Lee are two more highly respected Situation, who include ip in their training.”
I talk..nobody listens…you’re like my kids…[/QUOTE]
LOL. I was listening, and nothing has hardened my hands more than hitting focus mitts, heavy bags, etc without gloves on.
[QUOTE=Fa Xing;1138790]LOL. I was listening, and nothing has hardened my hands more than hitting focus mitts, heavy bags, etc without gloves on.[/QUOTE]
now Im listening too, wall bags , heavy bags , pads, things guys do to train impact, distance, timing, cadence… with bare knuckles 
BTW I have never injured my hands in fights, go figure.
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1138792]now Im listening too, wall bags , heavy bags , pads, things guys do to train impact, distance, timing, cadence… with bare knuckles
BTW I have never injured my hands in fights, go figure.[/QUOTE]
I’ve never injured mine either, and have always just rapped my knuckles on hard surfaces when I’m doing other things.
It bugs my wife though. :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=TenTigers;1138782]"Two things:
Wall bag training can be used for iron palm.[/QUOTE]
It probably can, but IMHO you will do well to use a downward strike methodology to supplement it. As I mentioned before, in my Mainland Chinese lineage of WC we hit the bag straight, to the sides and down.. We also hit the sand bowl in a wide horse stance, which is not associated with Wing Chun. We use punches, claws, finger strikes and palms.
[QUOTE=TenTigers;1138782]It’s not the dropping method, or even the palm that makes it iron palm, but the concept. Iron palm is just the term.[/QUOTE]
The dropping of the palm is a concept onto itself…
[QUOTE=TenTigers;1138782]I talk..nobody listens…you’re like my kids…[/QUOTE]
I could say the same things.
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1138792]now Im listening too, wall bags , heavy bags , pads, things guys do to train impact, distance, timing, cadence… with bare knuckles
BTW I have never injured my hands in fights, go figure.[/QUOTE]
AGAIN…Iron Palm/Fist etc, is not just about hardening your hands. A little bit of genuine research will go a long way, as regards this fascinating subject matter…
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1138765]I counter with lemon chicken finger strike :D[/QUOTE]
Awww But too late the chicken has ate the lemon an your finger…so you have nothing to defend yourself with…Not prepare for the blast of my Ginger Snaps!
[QUOTE=Hardwork108;1138802]It probably can, but IMHO you will do well to use a downward strike methodology to supplement it. As I mentioned before, in my Mainland Chinese lineage of WC we hit the bag straight, to the sides and down.. We also hit the sand bowl in a wide horse stance, which is not associated with Wing Chun. We use punches, claws, finger strikes and palms.
The dropping of the palm is a concept onto itself…
I could say the same things. ;)[/QUOTE]
I think that’s rediculous, when will you find yourself standing in a position above your opponent and trying to hit him downwards.
The only way I can see that downward strike is applicable is when you are on the ground with your opponent, with yourself in well postured position.
[QUOTE=Fa Xing;1138810]I think that’s rediculous, when will you find yourself standing in a position above your opponent and trying to hit him downwards.
The only way I can see that downward strike is applicable is when you are on the ground with your opponent, with yourself in well postured position.[/QUOTE]
How much damage can that strike do a foes chest cavity when you render him unconscious during the fight and want to utilized brick breaking force on his chest while he lays still unconscious?
[QUOTE=Fa Xing;1138810]I think that’s rediculous, when will you find yourself standing in a position above your opponent and trying to hit him downwards.
The only way I can see that downward strike is applicable is when you are on the ground with your opponent, with yourself in well postured position.[/QUOTE]
The downward striking Iron Palm/Fist training methodology is not only used in Wing Chun, but also numereous other kung fu styles, and I would “suggest” that the reason for this is not for “ground and pound”.
The down ward striking (with relaxation, breathing,etc. included) creates faculties for use in hitting straight, as well. Creating the “heavy hand” is one of the faculties in question.
actually, hdwk108 is correct..
you guys are getting hung up on thinking that the downward strike is…a downward strike.
When doing the downward strike, You are developing downward energy.
This can be applied in a myriad of methods.
One example is a downward jut-sao, which with proper energy, can break the opponent’s structure, or at least the trajectory of their arm-depending on their bridge sensitivity.
You need to stop looking at movement being simple technique, or rather, limited to simple technique.
Gung-Fu is a rich, vast method. If you limit your thinking, you limit your possibilities, and your understanding…or is it the other way around…?
[QUOTE=TenTigers;1138928]actually, hdwk108 is correct..
you guys are getting hung up on thinking that the downward strike is…a downward strike.
When doing the downward strike, You are developing downward energy.
This can be applied in a myriad of methods.
One example is a downward jut-sao, which with proper energy, can break the opponent’s structure, or at least the trajectory of their arm-depending on their bridge sensitivity.
You need to stop looking at movement being simple technique, or rather, limited to simple technique.
Gung-Fu is a rich, vast method. If you limit your thinking, you limit your possibilities, and your understanding…or is it the other way around…?[/QUOTE]
I have more or less simplified my methods…I see no point in hitting a bag on table when I could just as easily hit something else that will toughen my hands as well train other attributes more necessary to fighting.
But that’s just what I think, everyone is entitled to their or their beliefs whichever comes first.
[QUOTE=Fa Xing;1138996]
But that’s just what I think, everyone is entitled to their or their beliefs whichever comes first.[/QUOTE]
I hope that includes the Grandmasters who have developed the styles and the methodologies that some guys here criticize.
[QUOTE=TenTigers;1138928]actually, hdwk108 is correct..
you guys are getting hung up on thinking that the downward strike is…a downward strike.
When doing the downward strike, You are developing downward energy.
This can be applied in a myriad of methods.
One example is a downward jut-sao, which with proper energy, can break the opponent’s structure, or at least the trajectory of their arm-depending on their bridge sensitivity.
You need to stop looking at movement being simple technique, or rather, limited to simple technique.
Gung-Fu is a rich, vast method. If you limit your thinking, you limit your possibilities, and your understanding…or is it the other way around…?[/QUOTE]
Thank you!
I thought what we said here was common knowledge in TCMA circles, but it just proves that I can be wrong too.
[QUOTE=Hardwork108;1139166]I hope that includes the Grandmasters who have developed the styles and the methodologies that some guys here criticize. ;)[/QUOTE]
“When there is freedom from mechanical conditioning, there is simplicity. The classical man is just a bundle of routine, ideas and tradition. If you follow the classical pattern, you are understanding the routine, the tradition, the shadow - you are not understanding yourself.”
[QUOTE=Fa Xing;1138996]I have more or less simplified my methods…I see no point in hitting a bag on table when I could just as easily hit something else that will toughen my hands as well train other attributes more necessary to fighting.
But that’s just what I think, everyone is entitled to their or their beliefs whichever comes first.[/QUOTE]
It’s not a case of either/or, as much as far too many people try to make it that.
They compliment each other.
[QUOTE=TenTigers;1138928]… You need to stop looking at movement being simple technique, or rather, limited to simple technique.
Gung-Fu is a rich, vast method.[/QUOTE]
Wise words but unfortunately if all that is present in traditional chinese martial arts are the names of techniques rather than the ideologies or training methods what can we expect??
I used to consider certain Chinese systems to be richer than Wing Chun because they have the poetic lines, the terms and the methods laid out in their curriculums and Wing Chun didn’t. Then I met my Sifu of Wing Chun and there it was on the wall!!
Iron Palm is a ‘recipe’ of sorts and is only achievable through strict, disciplined training regimes imho and we start that with sand bag training fme.
There seems to be a huge misunderstanding of the Classical Chinese Martial Arts.
[QUOTE=Fa Xing;1139178]“When there is freedom from mechanical conditioning, there is simplicity.[/QUOTE]
You can never have freedom from “mechanical conditioning”, until you have mastered and understood it and the wisdom behind its methodology. Then and only then can you make yours, as it becomes you and you become it, in a free and flowing manner.
[QUOTE=Fa Xing;1139178]The classical man is just a bundle of routine, ideas and tradition.[/QUOTE]
Methodologies that become tradition, often do so because they survive the test of time. The modern man, instead of becoming a rebel without a cause, should study and investigate, WHY, this is so!
[QUOTE=Fa Xing;1139178]If you follow the classical pattern, you are understanding the routine, the tradition, the shadow - you are not understanding yourself.” ;)[/QUOTE]
Following the classical pattern you will understand the routine and MAKE IT YOURS, by personalizing and expanding it to your requirements, hence become yourself.
By the way, most things Bruce Lee said, has been said in Classicial TCMA concepts, principles and philosophy.
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1139225]Wise words but unfortunately if all that is present in traditional chinese martial arts are the names of techniques rather than the ideologies or training methods what can we expect??
[/QUOTE]
that is why having a good Sifu makes all the difference in the world. The forms don’t have everything. Knowing the kuen-kuit doesn’t teach you. Many things are passed down through the individual teachings of the Sifu.
And that depends on his own level of understanding.
This is why we see so many bad WCK people, bad Hung-Gar people, bad SPM people, bad Kenpo..bad karate…
so many “Masters,” and so few real gems.
This is also why TCMA gets a bad rap.
[QUOTE=TenTigers;1139353]that is why having a good Sifu makes all the difference in the world. The forms don’t have everything. Knowing the kuen-kuit doesn’t teach you. Many things are passed down through the individual teachings of the Sifu.
And that depends on his own level of understanding.
This is why we see so many bad WCK people, bad Hung-Gar people, bad SPM people, bad Kenpo..bad karate…
so many “Masters,” and so few real gems.
This is also why TCMA gets a bad rap.[/QUOTE]
amen to that…guys have half an idea about VT , then fill the other half with their own guesswork. When they teach you you don’t know any better…you learn most of your life, then find out he photo-shopped his head onto another person in a picture so he could say he was a student of_________.
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1139356]amen to that…guys have half an idea about VT , then fill the other half with their own guesswork. [/QUOTE]
I don’t think martial arts “progressed” except by the way you described, sometimes for better, sometimes for worse. If it didnt it would never have changed. Today, we would all be doing some ancient martial art that originated in the 1500’s, like Tai Tzu or something.