With all the talk of Iron Palm lately, it caused me to wonder:
Are iron palm techniques clearly demonstrated in the forms of your style?
At what stage do you teach iron palm to your students?
Do you emphasize iron palm in your teaching without emphasizing breaking wood and/or blocks? Why, or why not?
Have at it! 
[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1044432]With all the talk of Iron Palm lately, it caused me to wonder:
Are iron palm techniques clearly demonstrated in the forms of your style?
At what stage do you teach iron palm to your students?
Do you emphasize iron palm in your teaching without emphasizing breaking wood and/or blocks? Why, or why not?
Have at it! :)[/QUOTE]
yes use of palms to strike and the forces as well. However, IP is more of a method than a technique although there is technique involved for sure.
in my experience, it’s esoteric and some people just don’t ever learn it.
I practice iron palm but I don’t break things. Just to maintain.
nice thread mooying
- Are iron palm techniques clearly demonstrated in the forms of your style?
palm strikes are all over 8 step. whether or not one uses the conditioned palm is up to the practioner.
- At what stage do you teach iron palm to your students?
whenever I feel they are serious enough to learn it. I feel most students dont want to put the time in and will not deal well with the boring repiticious striking day after day after day, month after month, so as a teacher you gotta use your best judement. I have declined many students that have asked.
- Do you emphasize iron palm in your teaching without emphasizing breaking wood and/or blocks? Why, or why not?
again we have palm applications that WOULD work much better with a conditioned palm but it is not necessary. I would say that breaking is a great gauge
to understand your level of conditioning and delevopment of IP but not a requirement.
[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1044432]With all the talk of Iron Palm lately, it caused me to wonder:
Are iron palm techniques clearly demonstrated in the forms of your style?
At what stage do you teach iron palm to your students?
Do you emphasize iron palm in your teaching without emphasizing breaking wood and/or blocks? Why, or why not?
Have at it! :)[/QUOTE]
Just to mention, that IP training is not just about hard hands and breaking. One can have relatively soft hands and have penetrating strikes. This skill, I believe can classify under Iron Palm, but I have seen others refer to it as Cotton Palm.
The main purpose of this would be to damage Internal Organs. If I remember my readings correctly, Northern Praying Mantis uses similar methodolgies.
The Mainland Chinese of Wing Chun also has Iron Palm/Fist/Body, as part of its curriculm. However, as EarthDragon put it, it is not for everyone.
One fundamental aspect of IP is that you should train it under supervision from a qualified sifu.
One can have relatively soft hands and have penetrating strikes
.
I have NO callouses or marks on my palms from my training, But I have seen some prety messed up palms even disfiguring from improper training.
One fundamental aspect of IP is that you should train it under supervision from a qualified sifu.
OH GOD please dont go there, I got into a heated discussion and attacked on the IP thread when I said one should NOT learn I.P from a DVD, but hey its america and alot of black belts bought the book read it and claim to be a master, so why spend years doing something if you can buy a video and learn it in 90 minutes.
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1044443].
I have NO callouses or marks on my palms from my training, But I have seen some prety messed up palms even disfiguring from improper training.[/quote]
I guess some calluses can be acceptable but I bet a lot of those guys you mentioned, with the disfigured palms, end up with serious problems when they get older.
LOL!
I saw that thread, I think I even posted in it. I think that it is incredible that some MA people can be so uninformed about a methodology that has so many details to it, including the use of proper relaxedness, stance, correct posture, breathing and general technique, not to mention the potential for one to harm himself, through the wrong actions.
Some people here have made IP sound like some caveman form of training where one just hits somehthing to “harden” his hands.:eek:
IMHO, one does not have to be an Einstein to see the need for a qualified Sifu to guide one, during the various stages, of a methodolgy such as this one, but then this forum never ceases to “surprise” me…LOL!
[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1044432]With all the talk of Iron Palm lately, it caused me to wonder:
Are iron palm techniques clearly demonstrated in the forms of your style?
At what stage do you teach iron palm to your students?
Do you emphasize iron palm in your teaching without emphasizing breaking wood and/or blocks? Why, or why not?
Have at it! :)[/QUOTE]
Any hand strike is a “iron palm” strike in forms, as such then any form in a system that has IP as part of their curriculum demonstrates it.
IP should be taught as a “finishing tool” when the practitioner has a very solid grasp of his fighting ability.
Too many times you see over reliance on IP over proper fighting.
People forget that IP needs a “launch platform” AND skill to apply it.
Breaking is a test medium, it should be done to gauge progression and nothing more.
in our system, palm training is not just the conditioning of the hands, but moreso the generation of power. My SPM teacher has very soft hands, but strikes like iron.
sanjuro
Any hand strike is a “iron palm” strike in forms
perhaps you mean any PALM strike. we have several HAND strikes that use the wrists, fingers, knuckles and etc etc.
tentigers
in our system, palm training is not just the conditioning of the hands, but moreso the generation of power.
do you generate power in everything else as well as IP? i.e power generation can be done using all body movements even stances I am sure its not limited tyo just IP but perhapsd I read it wrong.
My SPM teacher has very soft hands, but strikes like iron.
true IP focuses on the internal hardening not so much the external.
I have no callouses and very “girly like soft hands” LOL go on insert joke here________________ I’m an engineer and in sales for construction never did labor so my hands are soft, even after years of IP training.
in Hung Kuen, everything is about power generation, so yeah, every move.
Our IP comes from that.
perhaps you mean any PALM strike. we have several HAND strikes that use the wrists, fingers, knuckles and etc etc.
Iron palm is more correctly iron HAND training as some systems do condition the wrist, fingers, knuckles and fist.
In Hung Kuen you do the palm, back of the hand, side of the hand, heel of plam and fingers in a “claw formation”.
In SPM, you do the palm, back of the hand/wrist, edge, heel and PE fist.
In Shuai Chiao you do the palm, back/wrist, edge and “short” palm.
Etc, etc…
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1044548]Iron palm is more correctly iron HAND training as some systems do condition the wrist, fingers, knuckles and fist.
In Hung Kuen you do the palm, back of the hand, side of the hand, heel of plam and fingers in a “claw formation”.
In SPM, you do the palm, back of the hand/wrist, edge, heel and PE fist.
In Shuai Chiao you do the palm, back/wrist, edge and “short” palm.
Etc, etc…[/QUOTE]
true.
also, palm/back/heel/ridge
also palm/back/ heel
also palm/back/heel/ ridge/ crane beak
also palm/back/heel/ ridge/ tiger claw
most in use sequence I have seen with others that is what I would consider legit ip training as far as the striking goes is #3 and #4 although I would say #4 is pretty much a Hung Gar/Black Tiger/Nan Sil Lum thing with #3 taking prevalnce among those who learned by way of or proxy of KYC methodology which is quite wide spread as IP methods go. Lee Ying Arng was disseminating this method (without the golden bell) in movie format in the early 1960’s in america and canada. LYA comes from KYC lineage in his north shaolin and IP/IV training.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1044563]true.
also, palm/back/heel/ridge
also palm/back/ heel
also palm/back/heel/ ridge/ crane beak
also palm/back/heel/ ridge/ tiger claw
most in use sequence I have seen with others that is what I would consider legit ip training as far as the striking goes is #3 and #4 although I would say #4 is pretty much a Hung Gar/Black Tiger/Nan Sil Lum thing with #3 taking prevalnce among those who learned by way of or proxy of KYC methodology which is quite wide spread as IP methods go. Lee Ying Arng was disseminating this method (without the golden bell) in movie format in the early 1960’s in america and canada. LYA comes from KYC lineage in his north shaolin and IP/IV training.[/QUOTE]
Yep.
Iron Hand conditioning is suppose to be “user specific”, while one may choose to condition the crane’s beak or tiger’s claw, another may prefer to condition the PE fist or the leopard fist and as such, the iron hand training would be adjusted to suit.
Ten tigers,
Ok I was thinking that way as well everything can generate power
san juro
on palm is more correctly iron HAND training as some systems do condition the wrist, fingers, knuckles and fist.
this I lost in translation as it is the same however in 8 step we have, hand techniques with applications listed they are
hawk, chopping, sickle, double pull, grinding mill, climbing, protect, mantis
as well we have palm tech with apps
spear side heel back, facing side chopping, double poke and double open.
So i confused by your post, because hands to me is different than palms
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1044576]Ten tigers,
Ok I was thinking that way as well everything can generate power
san juro
this I lost in translation as it is the same however in 8 step we have, hand techniques with applications listed they are
hawk, chopping, sickle, double pull, grinding mill, climbing, protect, mantis
as well we have palm tech with apps
spear side heel back, facing side chopping, double poke and double open.
So i confused by your post, because hands to me is different than palms[/QUOTE]
Well, the palm is the palm of your hand, a PART of your hand.
Other parts include the fingers, back, wrist, and both sides.
So, since we condition MORE than JUST the palm surface, Iron palm, though the popular terms, is more technically correct as iron HAND.
Great feedback guys!
Here is the way we do it in my school:
Are iron palm techniques clearly demonstrated in the forms of your style?
I only teach four mantis forms. In Beng Bu and Diao Fa there are palm strikes in which the iron palm method of striking is specifically emphasized.
At what stage do you teach iron palm to your students?
I teach the iron palm training method within the first month for adults and after the major growth plate development is finished in teenagers (late teens).
Do you emphasize iron palm in your teaching without emphasizing breaking wood and/or blocks? Why, or why not?
I leave that up to the student’s discretion. If they want to break materials to gauge their power, I will teach them how.
However, I do not believe it is necessary. I rarely practice it since I work in the medical field and cannot work with accidentally injured hands. :eek:
I believe the purpose of iron palm training is to teach penetrating power that injures internal organs.
mooyingmantis;1044432]
1. Are iron palm techniques clearly demonstrated in the forms of your style?
Yes they are a part of the root essence of our system.
2. At what stage do you teach iron palm to your students?
It is an integral part of the training but the neophyte is seldom aware of the true depth and breath of what there are involved.
3. Do you emphasize iron palm in your teaching without emphasizing breaking wood and/or blocks? Why, or why not?
Breaking tends to be used as a meter of skill during certain segment in the long term but it depends on the teacher. Some of my classmates are big on it but mainly i only emphasis these skill sets to my Military/ Law enforcement Disciples. My interests it come and go.
Iron Palm is one of the Kung’s () or Skills in Chinese “Kung Fu”. These can vary from IP to Jumping skill to climbing walls, to poking your fingers thru watermelons etc etc. Excelling in one of these skills might have been the key to your survival 300 years ago. One of the downfalls of this might have been sacrificing time to do the training, disfigurement of body parts, sacrificing other skills to perfect this one. I do not think people of today are willing to sacrifice anything for these skills.
I have been doing Iron Palm for 15 years now. 3 times a day 7 days a week 365 a year. Granted there have been times when I could not hit (traveling / knee surgery / getting married etc etc) but I have kept true to my practice. My family time has suffered, but they understand. The only way to achieve any high level of skill is thru diligent practice. My experience with modern students is that their life style does not allow most average person the time / energy to reach any higher than a basic skill. I tried to force all my students to hit during class time, hoping it would develop into a daily habit. After years of frustration I have come to the conclusion that the average person does not care or does have the time or does not want to put the time into developing this skill.
Hitting bags of beans or gravel or steel shot is nothing more than hardening / thickening your hands to hit hard and to take a hit without injury. True Iron Palm takes years of learning how to deliver and transmit power to your hands. Bringing chi / qi or energy to the hands is also a high level aspect of IP. Without the deeper aspects of IP you just have hard hands.
Slapping / Open Hand strikes / Finger Jabs are important parts of Monkey style fighting. It is my personal opinion that IP should be a part of daily training in Monkey.
gionsifu
I would like to add one more part to this thread.
This question has 2 parts:
First for commercial school owners, do the commercial style students have the right attitude / ability to train properly for IP. Should commercial school owners give up on trying to teach IP to people that are not prepared to do what ever it takes to achieve high skill?
For the traditional kung fu teacher, whether out of your garage or in the park, how do you get your students to follow thru with diligent IP practice?
ginosifu
For the traditional kung fu teacher, whether out of your garage or in the park, how do you get your students to follow thru with diligent IP practice?
That would depend on the program.
I have yet to see anyone follow ANYTHING close to yours.
Heck, I have yet to learn of anyone that TEACHES a routine like yours.