Iron palm/body questions

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Training and Health
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So let me ask you guys something. If iron palm/body/leg/whatever is realy all it’s cracked up to be why aren’t there any legitimate professional full contact fighters who have it as a part of their training routine?

I’ve seen Thai fighters kick though maple baseball bats, and those are hard. That’s without anything beyond heavy bag, pads, and sparring.

Also another question. How much, if any, do you think iron palm increases the resistance of bones to fracture and breakage in pounds per square inch?

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performance enhancing drugs

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[QUOTE=Bacon;1183589]So let me ask you guys something. If iron palm/body/leg/whatever is realy all it’s cracked up to be why aren’t there any legitimate professional full contact fighters who have it as a part of their training routine?

I’ve seen Thai fighters kick though maple baseball bats, and those are hard. That’s without anything beyond heavy bag, pads, and sparring.

Also another question. How much, if any, do you think iron palm increases the resistance of bones to fracture and breakage in pounds per square inch?[/QUOTE]

How do you know they don’t?, and I have no idea about the last one.

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nothing but a net ghost…

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[QUOTE=Dale Dugas;1183613]nothing but a net ghost…[/QUOTE]

Truer Words have never been spoken

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Ummm…striking a heavy bag filled with dense materials IS a lower level of iron palm/body training.

There was an article posted on here somewhere about how Pacquiao’s training mimics iron palm training and leads to his “heavy hands” and punching power for his weight.

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So Kevin73,

If its a LOW level as you hint at.

What pray tell would the advanced methods be?

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[QUOTE=Bacon;1183589]So let me ask you guys something. If iron palm/body/leg/whatever is realy all it’s cracked up to be why aren’t there any legitimate professional full contact fighters who have it as a part of their training routine?

I’ve seen Thai fighters kick though maple baseball bats, and those are hard. That’s without anything beyond heavy bag, pads, and sparring.

Also another question. How much, if any, do you think iron palm increases the resistance of bones to fracture and breakage in pounds per square inch?[/QUOTE]

My understanding is that native Thai fighters practice their shin kicks against banana trees which is a form of iron shin conditioning. As far as your question of why more full contact fighters don’t practice…that’s a good question. Have you ever crossed hands with somebody who has done iron bone conditioning for 5, 10, 15, 20+ years?

The science of Wolff’s law is well-known. We even observe the opposite effect regularly in astronauts who go to space. Not sure why you’re so adamant in denying what science has come to understand through years of observation, hypothesis, and experimentation.

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[QUOTE=Bacon;1183589]So let me ask you guys something. If iron palm/body/leg/whatever is realy all it’s cracked up to be why aren’t there any legitimate professional full contact fighters who have it as a part of their training routine?

I’ve seen Thai fighters kick though maple baseball bats, and those are hard. That’s without anything beyond heavy bag, pads, and sparring.

Also another question. How much, if any, do you think iron palm increases the resistance of bones to fracture and breakage in pounds per square inch?[/QUOTE]

Different systems use different methods.
Old time boxers ( like Marciano for example) used heavier sand bags and punched with ether bare hands or just wraps to condition their hands.
Thai boxers use the HB and other methods.
TCMA use their methods as do the JMA and OMA and KMA.
In Kyokushin we used a variety of methods.

In boxing we do drills where we are being hit to get used to taking shots, this is the boxing version of Iron Body.

I think you are trying to find issues with something that you think is something that it isn’t.

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I remember back in the '90s, world-class boxer Kostya Tszyu claimed that he practiced iron palm as part of his training, and he said that it helped him.

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[QUOTE=Kevin73;1186705]Ummm…striking a heavy bag filled with dense materials IS a lower level of iron palm/body training.[/quote]
You’re making my point for me. They’re doing something which is both increasing thier striking power and allowing them to practice combinations. As for the conditioning of the hands, considering these guys do it full time as professionals with power which dwarfs most fighters by leaps and bounds but then are quite prone to hand breakage when getting into bare knuckle fights… Again. Where’s the benefit.

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1186731]Different systems use different methods.
Old time boxers ( like Marciano for example) used heavier sand bags and punched with ether bare hands or just wraps to condition their hands.[/QUOTE]
And those guys wouldn’t be able to stand and bang in the ring with the fighters of today or twenty years ago so this doesn’t help your case.

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1186731]Thai boxers use the HB and other methods.[/QUOTE]
They use the Heavy bag and Thai pads. Also I’d keep in mind that by the time they’re 30 many pro Thai boxers have major issues because of the beating their bodies have taken. So again, not the best sample group to draw from.

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1186731]TCMA use their methods as do the JMA and OMA and KMA.
In Kyokushin we used a variety of methods.[/quote]
Ask someone like Bas Rutten who did Kyokushin whether any of that iron

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1186731]In boxing we do drills where we are being hit to get used to taking shots, this is the boxing version of Iron Body.[\quote]
And that is actually justifiable. You need to learn how to take shots. But boxing, jma, and oma, generally also prescribe a much more serious training regimen. At least the traditional schools.

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1186731]I think you are trying to find issues with something that you think is something that it isn’t.[/QUOTE]
No. And I have fought more than a few “iron” guys and all of them should have spent more time learning how to actually fight than on their conditioning methods. The jma and oma guys could actually fight decently at least but didn’t try touting their magical iron conditioning.

And as a side not I didn’t start this thread to bash iron conditioning. I was lookin for any kind of scientific data, or assumptions on the subject.

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machida uses makiwara. and that just one guy really quickly off the top of my head. and he was a champ for a while too. there are more. do your own research. this vid shows him using it. and yes makiwara is a form of ‘iron’ type conditioning. dont get attached to the name ‘iron’ its just a name. hand conditioning and other body part conditioning has been used in all martial arts through out all time. mma uses it too just doesnt call it iron. what do you think getting hit over and over does to you? duhhhhh

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2010/5/4/1457392/lyoto-machida-talks-strategy-for

attachment is the way to death, fluidity is the way to lilfe

musashi.

some people are so obsessed with trying to debunk things that are just plain common sense, they cant see the forest for the trees.

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[QUOTE=Bacon;1183589]So let me ask you guys something. If iron palm/body/leg/whatever is realy all it’s cracked up to be why aren’t there any legitimate professional full contact fighters who have it as a part of their training routine? [/quote]

Well, palm conditioning is a real thing. You don’t see MMA guys do palm strikes too often, though (maybe some Sakuraba style stuff). I assume there are no rules preventing this type of strike. A punch has better range than a palm strike so more guys punch. A punch also better protects the fingers.

Also, real fighting is very instinctive, and making a fist to generate power is more instinctive than using a palm. Not to mention, a tightly clenched fist allows more overall tension to be generated thus more powerful strikes can be generated.

I suspect palm strikes would work best from a grappling range when you’re already close and distance isn’t an issue.

Professional fighters do body conditioning. They don’t call it “iron body” but they get struck a lot and it increases their ability with withstand strikes in the future. There’s no silly qigong component to it. It just happens as part of their training. I don’t know if any guys do specific body conditioning training outside of sparring, but I’m sure some probably have at some point.

Most of the “iron body” demos you see are just stage tricks and physics tricks and are blamed on “qi” and designed to make people who want to believe think you have mystic powers. I have written at length about this in other posts so there’s no reason to repeat myself here, but if any qigong-based iron body practitioner wanted to show that he was actually using qi rather than physical conditioning and stage tricks, there are easy ways to do so. So far, no one has done it.

So obviously you don’t see any of that stuff with professional fighters because they are more concerned with improving their fighting rather than impressing people who want to believe with mystic stage tricks.

I’ve seen Thai fighters kick though maple baseball bats, and those are hard. That’s without anything beyond heavy bag, pads, and sparring.

Muay thai shin conditioning is basically the same thing as iron palm. The bone gets denser because of Wolff’s law. Resistance to pain is increased because of a gradual increase in training intensity. Some Muay Thai guys use some liniment. You can use jow, or that peppermint smelling stuff, or Arnica if you believe in homeopathy, or just regular massage, or whatever. The point is to stimulate blood flow. There’s no qigong involved in Muay Thai shin training. Iron palm will likely work just as well without the qigong component.

Also another question. How much, if any, do you think iron palm increases the resistance of bones to fracture and breakage in pounds per square inch?

I’m not sure if this has been quantified. You may be able to find more if you Google “Wolff’s law”.

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[QUOTE=Empty_Cup;1186727]My understanding is that native Thai fighters practice their shin kicks against banana trees which is a form of iron shin conditioning. As far as your question of why more full contact fighters don’t practice…that’s a good question. Have you ever crossed hands with somebody who has done iron bone conditioning for 5, 10, 15, 20+ years? [/quote]

It is worth mentioning that banana trees have a rubbery bark.

It’s not like they kick palm trees like in the movie “Kickboxer.”

And I think most guys use heavy bags now anyway.

Everyone hears that Muay Thai guys used to kick trees and they think that’s the secret to legendary fighting powers. Your heavy bag is fine, and is probably better.

The science of Wolff’s law is well-known. We even observe the opposite effect regularly in astronauts who go to space. Not sure why you’re so adamant in denying what science has come to understand through years of observation, hypothesis, and experimentation.

Yup.

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[QUOTE=Lucas;1186780
some people are so obsessed with trying to debunk things that are just plain common sense, they cant see the forest for the trees.[/QUOTE]

This.
Fact is that its the name and the bad rep given to it by some “muble-jumbo” guys that ruins it.
Almost all striking arts have some form or another of iron hand/iron body work, whatever they choose to call it.

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The most effective martial artists Ive ever met dont do any specific conditioning at all–that includes Thai-style shin conditioning. They just get whatever conditioning comes from actually training in an organic, pressurized environment.

Most people I know who do iron palm (including most of my iron palm students) cant apply it in the above setting because once theyre put under pressure, the body mechanics disappear. And its the same reason they cant apply 99% of the “techniques” they learn in forms and such (to clarify, I dont teach forms. Im referring to other martial artists who do formwork).

Iron palm does provide some interesting attribute development and I personally enjoy doing it–anyone whos done it diligently for some time can notice it. And anyone whos taken a few months off from it after years of doing it can feel the hands start to get less robust, adapt back to normal. But this attribute development is worthless unless you have trained it under pressure and can successfully pull it off at will at progressively increasing levels of pressure. For most people who train iron palm, its nothing more than a circus act…the ability to break a block is a totally different activity than trying to apply the strike to someones head while theyre trying to do the same to you. If you want skill in your martial art, you train diligently with partners who will put your timing, composure, and reaction to the test…Conditioning is done when you dont have someone around to help you get better…

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I agree with what a number of folks have said regarding iron bone conditioning as complementary to your fighting training…iron bone should not be your only training. It of course makes sense that somebody who only trains to hit a stationary object and never spars, does aerobic exercises, flexibility, speed training, etc. will not be much of an actual fighter.

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When you get old, your finger joint start to develop some arthritics and can’t hold a proper fist, your iron palm may be the only dependable striking weapon that you have left.

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[QUOTE=Dale Dugas;1186713]So Kevin73,

If its a LOW level as you hint at.

What pray tell would the advanced methods be?[/QUOTE]

Hitting a bag with softer materials (mung beans) is the starting level of iron palm/iron body is it not? Then you move up to a harder material (gravel) and then you move up again into an even harder material (steel shot).

So, the starting level is a lower level than where you end up at isn’t it? So just hitting a heavy bag is a low level of skill in terms of total iron palm training.

I wasn’t down grading the skill, I was pointing out that it is the same training just not taken to a higher level of skill, such as, short power breaking etc. that someone who trains iron palm a long time can do. The question was why don’t pro fighters do iron training, my answer is that they do. They just don’t call it that and stay at the initial level many times.

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[QUOTE=Kevin73;1187135]Hitting a bag with softer materials (mung beans) is the starting level of iron palm/iron body is it not? Then you move up to a harder material (gravel) and then you move up again into an even harder material (steel shot).

So, the starting level is a lower level than where you end up at isn’t it? So just hitting a heavy bag is a low level of skill in terms of total iron palm training.

I wasn’t down grading the skill, I was pointing out that it is the same training just not taken to a higher level of skill, such as, short power breaking etc. that someone who trains iron palm a long time can do. The question was why don’t pro fighters do iron training, my answer is that they do. They just don’t call it that and stay at the initial level many times.[/QUOTE]

I understood your initial comment Kevin73 as not being provocative and agree with what you mention above.

Maybe here’s the real question for folks, why don’t professional fighters practice the more advanced levels of iron bone training beyond heavy bag work and sparring?