Hello everyone,
I am glad because I started wing chun again after many months. The practitioner that I do the practice and techniques does iron palm technique and when he defenses with pak sao, my hand…
my practitioner says that iron palm has 100 lessons. Is anybody here who has already done 100 lessons, and if someone do, can he see difference in his power?
I want to do the iron palm technique…
[QUOTE=iwingchun;1134375]Hello everyone,
I am glad because I started wing chun again after many months. The practitioner that I do the practice and techniques does iron palm technique and when he defenses with pak sao, my hand…
my practitioner says that iron palm has 100 lessons. Is anybody here who has already done 100 lessons, and if someone do, can he see difference in his power?
I want to do the iron palm technique…:)[/QUOTE]
I do a secret Chinese art called “Deadly rusty bridge techniques” , far more powerful than iron palm.
If Iron palm is used on my rusty bridge, the palms… rust.
You get rusty palms and blood poisoning, slow agonizing death follows a week later, honest…super double deadly.
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[QUOTE=iwingchun;1134375]Hello everyone,
I am glad because I started wing chun again after many months. The practitioner that I do the practice and techniques does iron palm technique and when he defenses with pak sao, my hand…
my practitioner says that iron palm has 100 lessons. Is anybody here who has already done 100 lessons, and if someone do, can he see difference in his power?
I want to do the iron palm technique…:)[/QUOTE]
Iron palm. Mysticism and fakery hiding a scientific truth. It is called Wolff’s law. From Wikipedia: Bone in a healthy person or animal will adapt to the loads it is placed under. If loading on a particular bone increases, the bone will remodel itself over time to become stronger to resist that sort of loading. The internal architecture of the trabeculae undergoes adaptive changes, followed by secondary changes to the external cortical portion of the bone. IOW, if you hit something over and over, the bone becomes denser. If you hit a heavy bag or a bag filled with rice or beans, over time the bones subjected to the stress will become more dense. Bones are microscopically like sponges. The more stress you place on them over team, the less spongy the bone becomes.
[QUOTE=trubblman;1134440]Iron palm. Mysticism and fakery hiding a scientific truth. It is called Wolff’s law. From Wikipedia: Bone in a healthy person or animal will adapt to the loads it is placed under. If loading on a particular bone increases, the bone will remodel itself over time to become stronger to resist that sort of loading. The internal architecture of the trabeculae undergoes adaptive changes, followed by secondary changes to the external cortical portion of the bone. IOW, if you hit something over and over, the bone becomes denser. If you hit a heavy bag or a bag filled with rice or beans, over time the bones subjected to the stress will become more dense. Bones are microscopically like sponges. The more stress you place on them over team, the less spongy the bone becomes.[/QUOTE]
That’s exactly what “Iron Palm” is. The medicine only helps with the contusions so the practitioner can continue training longer. I know for a fact that Iron Palm training works for the scientific reasons above. I have experienced it myself and have seen the progress in others. And I don’t believe in anything mystical . Period
Thank you all for the advices, explanations and opinions.
I would like to have an iron palm hand
While I am not an expert with them, I do believe iron rings exhibit Wolff’s law according to the wikipedia definition.
Of course, they’re more for use with other Southern styles but some might find it interesting. If they don’t already know it.
Question
Why practice Iron Palm? Is this a technique that the WC is responsible for promoting…
If you practice iron palm why not iron fist (Sun Punch) or iron fingers (Bil Gee)?
[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;1138457]Why practice Iron Palm? Is this a technique that the WC is responsible for promoting…
If you practice iron palm why not iron fist (Sun Punch) or iron fingers (Bil Gee)?[/QUOTE]
And dont forget “Iron Ginger Fist” , I think I saw a DVD series somewhere for that…
There is more to Iron Palm than creating hard hands. I believe some you guys need a little bit more research as regards this subject matter.
Hint, hitting the makiwara and hardening the hand is not not necessarily Iron Palm training on its own. Why? A good question whose answer will open “gates” for some people.
Correct Makiwara training should be like iron hand training and, in a certain way makiwara CAN be superiour ( because of the positioning and give, but that is subjective).
To issue is too many practioners view the makiwara as a “punching bag” and not a forging tool.
The makiwara, like the IP bag, is to be hit with moderate force ( something more easily controlled on the IP bag because one is simply dropping the hand and allowing fro gravity to do it job as opposed to the horizontal thrust used on the miakiwara).
As for the internal aspects, makiwara training is supposed to do that to.
Fact is though that the only evidence we have that hand conditioning works is the reliable and non-speculative evidence of the increase in bone density ( the aforementioned Wolffs Law).
Beyond that, well..
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1138481]Correct Makiwara training should be like iron hand training[/QUOTE]
That is why I stated that hitting the makiwara and hardening the hand is not necessarily Iron Palm/Fist training.
The key word you used above is: “correct”. That word encompasses the types of energy; breathing methodologies; mindset; tension/relaxation, etc. used in the training.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1138481]and, in a certain way makiwara CAN be superiour ( because of the positioning and give, but that is subjective).[/QUOTE]
True, and as you also know, there are more than one kind of makiwara, for different purposes, as there is more to TCMA IP than “dropping” the hand on the sand (bean/iron fillings) bag. For example, there is the sand bowl; use of light weights, and even the use of punch bags (often filled with heavier material), not to mention supplimentary “development forms” training and other Internal body unity exercises.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1138481]To issue is too many practioners view the makiwara as a “punching bag” and not a forging tool.[/QUOTE]
Agreed, and these people think that because their bone density increases by using a makiwara as a punch bag, then they are doing IP.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1138481]The makiwara, like the IP bag, is to be hit with moderate force ( something more easily controlled on the IP bag because one is simply dropping the hand and allowing fro gravity to do it job as opposed to the horizontal thrust used on the miakiwara).
As for the internal aspects, makiwara training is supposed to do that to.[/QUOTE]
Except for the fact that some (not all) karate styles use the type of tension in striking that some TCMA-ists consider at best unproductive and at worse. unhealthy.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1138481]Fact is though that the only evidence we have that hand conditioning works is the reliable and non-speculative evidence of the increase in bone density ( the aforementioned Wolffs Law).[/QUOTE]
The way I have been taught IP, sees the importance of bone density and hardned skin as secondary to the main purpose which is to teach the practitioner to project his striking energy inside of the target - eventually, from the shortest range possible.
That is why I stated that there is more to IP than just hardening the hands.
The idea of dropping the hand on a bag simply for bone density alone is …well… DVD series !
We hit with bare hands in VT , wall bags with varying density as we progress. We hit a bag in front of us to develop striking ideas along with hip / elbow ‘pulses’ in a line of force we also use in fighting. If your dropping your arm downwards onto a bag for punching or palm striking work your losing the WHOLE purpose of SLT Dont forget that while punching a wall bag your also traveling a certain way to the bag to ingrain an intercepting line from wu sao to the apex etc…so its multi-tasking along with learning to deliver strikes. Many simply see a bag and want to hit it hard with no ideas of alignment, wu-shin…
Any toughening and bone density is a by-product of our bare hand striking objects unprotected for years.
My hands and forearms from dummy work arent ‘normal’ but I didnt say to myself one day " I am going to slap my hand down on a bag to make my hand harder " .
I developed open hand strikes that can stop you cold where you stand and drop, but I never once thought to make my bones denser first .
Frankly if you hit a skull with a palm you dont need this ‘Iron Palm’ you just need good alignment etc..I have hit guys in fights with my plain ol palm and had good results.
I did develop blisters at the base of my palm and then calluses from palm striking work on a wall bag.
Once you get this alignment and line of force you can take it to a heavy bag and start to use turning force/axis, body mass in motion in time with striking entry, etc…
I can also break bricks with my palm. Bricks dont hit back ; )
The increase in bone/tissue density is only one aspect of IP training.
The idea is to develop harder and harder strikes, with less effort.
(Of course it is relaxed. All strikes need relaxation-mass x acceleration= force. If you aren’t relaxed, you will not accelerate the strike. You are driving with the parking brake on.)
As you develop harder strikes, the hand must be made harder to be able to withstand the power of your own strikes, otherwise you are striking hard with a weak and unstable weapon. It’s pure logic. No mystery, no secret.
Projecting force into the opponent is technique. Learning to pulse your strike, and develop shock power-similar to the pulse used in CPR (the dark side of the Force of CPR:-) is part of the method.
Sure you can call it internal..if you want.
But I prefer to call it what it is; physics.
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1138487]The idea of dropping the hand on a bag simply for bone density alone is …well… DVD series ! :D[/QUOTE]
If you read my previous post you will see that IP training encompasses much more than just bone density.
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1138487]We hit with bare hands in VT , wall bags with varying density as we progress. We hit a bag in front of us to develop striking ideas along with hip / elbow ‘pulses’ in a line of force we also use in fighting. [/QUOTE]
In our lineage, the bags are in front, to the sides and on the bottom. There is also the sand bowl, whose purpose is not to teach you how to strike downwards. 
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1138487]If your dropping your arm downwards onto a bag for punching or palm striking work your losing the WHOLE purpose of SLT [/QUOTE]
There are some real sifus who would disagree with you on that point.
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1138487]Dont forget that while punching a wall bag your also traveling a certain way to the bag to ingrain an intercepting line from wu sao to the apex etc…so its multi-tasking along with learning to deliver strikes. Many simply see a bag and want to hit it hard with no ideas of alignment, wu-shin…[/QUOTE]
Good point. However, as far as Wing Chun (and other TCMA are concerned) hitting downward exercises such as the bag and the sand bowl, are not practiced in isolation.
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1138487]Any toughening and bone density is a by-product of our bare hand striking objects unprotected for years.
My hands and forearms from dummy work arent ‘normal’ but I didnt say to myself one day " I am going to slap my hand down on a bag to make my hand harder " . [/QUOTE]
But many genuine TCMA masters and grandmasters have done so, but of course, the purpose of this methodology was never about solely to make your “hand harder”.
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1138487]I developed open hand strikes that can stop you cold where you stand and drop, but I never once thought to make my bones denser first . [/QUOTE]
Yes, open hand strikes are effective and their effectiveness is rarely about bone density.
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1138487]Frankly if you hit a skull with a palm you dont need this ‘Iron Palm’ you just need good alignment etc..I have hit guys in fights with my plain ol palm and had good results.[/QUOTE]
That is why the name “Iron Palm”, which refers to the methodology we are talking about is some what misleading.
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1138487]I did develop blisters at the base of my palm and then calluses from palm striking work on a wall bag.
Once you get this alignment and line of force you can take it to a heavy bag and start to use turning force/axis, body mass in motion in time with striking entry, etc…[/QUOTE]
True. That is Wing Chun as practiced generally, but there are TCMA styles that can do great bit of damage with their IRON PALM without using the body mass in motion method.
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1138487]I can also break bricks with my palm. Bricks dont hit back ; )[/QUOTE]
Not after you so mercilessly break them, they don’t!
[QUOTE=Hardwork108;1138506]If you read my previous post you will see that IP training encompasses much more than just bone density.
In our lineage, the bags are in front, to the sides and on the bottom. There is also the sand bowl, whose purpose is not to teach you how to strike downwards.
There are some real sifus who would disagree with you on that point.
Good point. However, as far as Wing Chun (and other TCMA are concerned) hitting downward exercises such as the bag and the sand bowl, are not practiced in isolation.
But many genuine TCMA masters and grandmasters have done so, but of course, the purpose of this methodology was never about solely to make your “hand harder”.
Yes, open hand strikes are effective and their effectiveness is rarely about bone density.
That is why the name “Iron Palm”, which refers to the methodology we are talking about is some what misleading.
True. That is Wing Chun as practiced generally, but there are TCMA styles that can do great bit of damage with their IRON PALM without using the body mass in motion method.
Not after you so mercilessly break them, they don’t! :D[/QUOTE]
I wonder which real sifu you mean ?
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1138533]I wonder which real sifu you mean ?[/QUOTE]
Any sifu who appreciates the wisdom of “downward” sandbag and sand bowl training, together with straight punching sandbag training.
[QUOTE=TenTigers;1138500]The increase in bone/tissue density is only one aspect of IP training.
The idea is to develop harder and harder strikes, with less effort.
(Of course it is relaxed. All strikes need relaxation-mass x acceleration= force. If you aren’t relaxed, you will not accelerate the strike. You are driving with the parking brake on.)
As you develop harder strikes, the hand must be made harder to be able to withstand the power of your own strikes, otherwise you are striking hard with a weak and unstable weapon. It’s pure logic. No mystery, no secret.
Projecting force into the opponent is technique. Learning to pulse your strike, and develop shock power-similar to the pulse used in CPR (the dark side of the Force of CPR:-) is part of the method.
Sure you can call it internal..if you want.
But I prefer to call it what it is; physics.[/QUOTE]
Rik has *****-slapped the correct and given it the Hung Kuen wedgie of death !
[QUOTE=Hardwork108;1138541]Any sifu who appreciates the wisdom of “downward” sandbag and sand bowl training, together with straight punching sandbag training. ;)[/QUOTE]
Ah, those real sifu.
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1138545]Ah, those real sifu.[/QUOTE]
Yep, there are still a few of them left.
[QUOTE=Hardwork108;1138546]Yep, there are still a few of them left. ;)[/QUOTE]
Can you name a few ?