Disillusioned wiht my Wing Chun training

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

Please note im not saying im disillusioned with wing chun itself – im sure the art or the million different takes on it work for different people.

I’ve only been training 2 years (three times a week every week) but find it hard to realistically apply wing chun. I don’t mean one attack, one defend scenarios – but when the training is picked up, and defending/sparring against a non-compliant partner (particularly from different style) my technique does not hold up. It often disintegrates into a basic boxing style scenario.

I wonder what people’s thoughts are on this. Is likely to be the length of time I have been training, the style itself, the method of training (application/drill heavy, with less emphasis initially on the forms, and some modifications of these from the traditional system to make them more). I know I’m not giving you enough info on my case but wondered if people had similar frustrations, etc. in their training.

Thanks

2

This is an old story, and imo, regardless of lineage, the problem lies in an unrealistic approach to training that at least 90% of the wing chun world engages in. Let me put it another way - judge a school by how much time they actually spend getting it’s students “street ready”.

In other words, in addition to forms, chi sao (and all related drills), the wooden dummy, basic footwork, basic punching and kicking drills…

How much time is actually spent sparring?
And if so - how much time with light contact, medium, heavy?
Any crosstraining going on? If not - then exactly what are they doing against:
Boxing?
Grappling?
Karate?
Muay Thai?
Kickboxing?
Time spent punching, kicking, knees, elbows…using mitts, pads, shields, bags?
How much stretching?
How much time spent developing cardio endurance?
Strengthening and conditioning?
Working against the streetfighter mentality?
Such as wild meant-to-take-your-head-off haymaker round punches?
Headlocks that might lead to a hip toss putting you on the ground?
Rear bearhugs?
Standing/pushing front chokes?
Charges like a football player meant to drop you right on your back?
Multiple opponents?
Attacks with knives or sticks?

3

agree with the previous post…you have to step back and look at the approach being ‘sold’. A lot of Vt today has turned into ‘applications’ or self defence “according to bob”.or whoever [nothing against bobs by the way:D ] or worse ’ SPIRITUAL’ chi development that you take to the ufc and beat them with inner force : ) LMAO sorry …today the proving grounds are the ring & the street / bar /nightclub etc… if your being asked to do SLT and develop anything other than a fighting framework with your elbows/arms …ask yourself , does this guy really know how to fight with this mess or is he walking around proclaming inner chi / chisao alone will save you …
VT is FIGHTING attribute training SYSTEM , this should include what was listed above …the forms are only to correct yourself away from the random fighting/sparring…the chisao is to teach what to expect in terms of force and where to put it…how to move with that force, not always having to be touching it…maintaining maximum [to you] fight distance standing side on moving to the left and right of an attack and attacking the same to a persons right or left…VT IS like boxing just using our system of elbow/c~line
flanking while facing square with the shoulders at the SIDE, like we step into the dummy, when to step in or move is all about timing and training …when you make contact for real your chisao will have prepared you for what force feels like , giving you the ability to have correct angles to counter a specific line of force without thinking about it…the rolling of the arms in chisao is onlt to train a move and elbow recovery to get back to hitting again …no ‘set-pieces’ like I do bong you punch I do 3 things bs…try to invite straightline attacks so you can flank at the last second following it as it retreats…
…standing with a lead leg forwards straight away limits your lateral movement/thinking to a straight line attack…think of moving like a bulllfighter , stay next to the bull stabbing it to death before it gets its horns back at you , if you lose the attack , prepare for the charge again side on wait till the last second or it will simply follow you, if you footwork fails , say goodbye :smiley:
would you go backwards to a bulls charge or straightline blast it head on ?
another analogy my instructor uses is fighting a bucket of water with your own, you wait for the commitment of the throw and flank , if you try to hold your ground even if you block a lot, still some will go through…

4

Not all WCK’s train for fighting. Some just do endless drills of chi sau and think this will prepare them for noncompliant opponents…WRONG! The other problem is that if a WCK school DOES train for fighting ie sparring and so on the WCK “Snobs” start screaming “That doesn’t look like WC” and so on. Pathetic! These are also the guys who say their art is “too deadly” for the ring… again… pathetic.

Don’t give up my friend. When I first started looking for WC the very first school I found was a joke. I got lucky and found one an hour away. It was worth the trip 3 days a week compared to the joke school 10 minutes away. And if after all that you still feel WCK isn’t any good… find something that is. In the end… it’s all about what YOU want.

Good luck :slight_smile:

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[QUOTE=wcisformen;713445]
Ive only been training 2 years (three times a week every week) but find it hard to realistically apply wing chun. I dont mean one attack, one defend scenarios but when the training is picked up, and defending/sparring against a non-compliant partner (particularly from different style) my technique does not hold up. It often disintegrates into a basic boxing style scenario.

[/QUOTE]

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it disintegrating into ‘a basic boxing style scenario’. In reality, this is how you will fight in the street. I practice Taiji now, and haven’t practiced Wing Chun in years, but the idea is the same; if I get into a fight in the street I’m not going to sink into a Tai Chi stance or a Wing Chun stance and go through movements like the form; instead the form will become formless and I will move however I am comfortable. To a passerby I would probably look like a boxer. However if you have trained hard your techniques from the form and chi sao will show up when you start exchanging with your opponent.
Example: I was doing push hands with my Taiji teacher and he rolled his arm over mine and came at me with a punch. I automatically caught his hand with my palm and he just looked at me like ‘where the heck did that come from?’. It was a move from an old Lat Sao routine that I had drilled like a madman when I was first studying Wing Tsun. I only took WT for a little over a year, but I remember drilling that particular Lat Sao routine over and over, and now apparently it is part of me, even though I haven’t trained WT in well over five years.

6

formlessness

In Wing Chun and ALL kung fu you train form.

In Wing chun you train form, chi sao, drillling, footwork etc. What’s the point of training all of that if you’re just going to revert into any old style? I’m not knocking the fact that the origional poster reverted to boxing. It is more natural for him because he hasn’t trained long enough.

When Bruce Lee talked of formlessness he was only reiterating what Chinese martial arts has been doing for years. Most will never understand this level and I think Bruce Lee understood it on an intelectual level. His physical skill is debateable. ANywho, in wing chun you train forms and all that so that WHEN A FIGHT OCCURS YOU GO FORMLESS BUT IN A WING CHUN WAY. That means you don’t just start jumping around like a monkey. You freesyle but you freestyle with Wing Chun footwork, hand positions(tan, bong, fook,etc) while using wing chun structure. The idea is to go formless but only after you’ve mastered the basic principles of the system.

When it comes to “real” fights you have to ask yourselves one question: Are you a person that walks into fights or away from fights? Many of the people on this forum, who advocate “real” training over traditional training fall into the category of those who walk into fights.

Tell me I’m wrong

7

Yes and More -

I agree with the above post’s but i also believe in one other very important factor.

Many schools dont - know how to/ or practice -
Non compliant, Poon Sao which without stopping will lead into Gor Sao and free fighting.

Most VT schools ive seen have totally compliant Poon Sao, Luk Sao and Gor Sao drills and they have no ability to transform between each platform without stopping and starting again.
This limits a students progression running into your problem - finding it doesnt work under preasure.

Starting at the base level having Non compliant Poon sao and without stopping being taught how to move into Non compliant, full contact Gor Sao and then Luk sao will give you a better platform to build on when putting on gloves and getting busy throwing leather…

Each level builds on the next and HAS been passed down by those that not only learnt VT fighting techniques but also HOW to TEACH VT fighting techniques properly.

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Tell me I’m wrong

You’re wrong!

Well you told me to tell you that :stuck_out_tongue:

Want me to tell you anything else? :smiley:

9

wcisformen,

Kung Fu, like anything else we want to do well in life, must have a goal. If your goal is to be a better fighter, then you must take a broader overview of this goal. A fighter must have courage and show a commitment to fighting. A fighter must have trust in their ability. If you don’t have these things, then the “style” has nothing to do with this and you must find a way to develop these things which evolve from within you.

The first step is to understand what you are doing and why you do it. The development of relaxation comes from doing something with little effort. Having confidence because you have done it 1000 times.

You are describing the Kung Fu like the ball and chain. This is not what it was meant to be. It was meant as a foundation for you to express your own kung fu, your “Jeet kune do”. Everyone has different bodies, different experiences, and different abilities. So one must gain an honest understanding of their capabilities by their own process. Not rely solely on the style. Just because you are a black belt does not make you a great fighter. Just because you have completed the Ving Tsun system does not make you a great fighter. Just because you are great at Chi Sao does not make you a great fighter.

You must become the captain of your own ship, looking for the things in training that will help you express yourself. Ask yourself if you have a purpose when you play Chi Sao? What do you study or think about when you play? For a real fight do you think you have to stand their in a jong sao? Do you feel you are not doing Ving Tsun if you don’t use bong, tan, and fuk?

Have you discussed your concerns about your fighting ability with your Sifu?

The Kung Fu should not be viewed as a “one size fits all”. As mentioned, you will grow and at some point look into things like strength training, conditioning, and do some free sparring. In regard to your Kung Fu training, take more time to look deeper at where in the Kung Fu training can you emphasize explosiveness?

2 years is not the gauge. Don’t worry about your time, except that you need more time to address this issue.

One thing you can work on right away is to avoid hesitation. Don’t wait for your opponent. Ving Tsun is an aggressive art that asks the questions.

Good luck with your Kung Fu!

10

wcisformen,

It might help to ask yourself some questions:

  1. Can the senior students and instructor at my school fight effectively using Wing Chun techniques?
  2. If the answer to one is no, can they still fight effectively using the boxing style approach?
  3. Do I feel lucky? (well do ya, punk? :wink: )

If answer to 1 is yes, then you can probably achieve what you want at this school with more tuition and practice.

If the answer to 2 is yes, then you need to consider your priorities, viz. effective self-defence vs. adherence to WC. If self defence, you’re probably still OK where you are. If not then you might need to find another school. Certainly there are high level practitioners who can fight effectively with WC, though if they fought with gloves under rules, etc. it might look a little more like boxing than chi sao.

savage:

I think Bruce Lee understood it on an intelectual level. His physical skill is debateable.

Lots of things are debatable, including whether or not your opinions on Bruce Lee’s knowledge and abilities carry any weight.

Many of the people on this forum, who advocate “real” training over traditional training fall into the category of those who walk into fights.

You’ve got 4 posts up, you don’t know anybody on this forum and already you’re making sweeping and unfounded criticisms.

Sounds like you’re the sort of person who walks into fights.

leejunfan is correct - you are not.

11

Such as wild meant-to-take-your-head-off haymaker round punches?

Punches like that are God’s gift to Wing Chun. Having worked for 2 years in an area that I was exposed to violence on a regular basis I can tell you from experience that I would much rather face one of those than a savvy, measured fighter. Not that I have ever been in an altercation with a savvy, measured fighter but I certainly have experienced the furiously angry “me want kill you” type.

Do you believe that the Wing Chun you have been learning will help you defeat someone who is REALLY intent on hurting you? A drunk a$$hole who wants to smack you around? These are the most likely scenarios. It is good to train against a mixture of opponents but realistically how many times are you going to be attacked (if at all?) by a calm, calculating fighter with many years of training?

Good luck with your training,

SB

12

I used the example of the meant-to-take-your-head-off haymaker to make a point that is the complete opposite of yours, straightblast…don’t spend all of your training time working against skillful, methodical, savvy, measured fighter types…because then you will be vulnerable to the crazed streetfighter type attack - since it’s now been ages since you’ve worked against it.

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sparr strongly -analyze your mistakes-work on them

sparr strongly-analyze your mistakes-work on them

keep doing it till u feel that u can aply what u hv learned.

p.s keep in mind that wing chun is about self expresion of its principles. So apply what works for u.

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wcisformen,

I’m your “younger brother” in WC having not quite trained a whole year. So all I can describe is my similar experience and how I am trying to approach it. I put out these thoughts knowing that I know nothing compared to the the many experienced people on this forum, so I am grateful for criticism.

Basically I see this as one of the main challenges I am facing right now, how to integrate the techniques into a random fighting situation. To me the best thing is to train with a partner who’s interested in the same subject. We can spar or take turns attacking each other with wild haymakers or one-two sucker combinations or whatever and just keep practicing on them, trying things out, succeeding, failing, and above all having fun. I’ve only done this a little so far, but it feels right.

Another thing is that it seems to me that a boxing type scenario like you describe has a totally different rythm to it than WC. In boxing you go in and out of range trying to set up the perfect opportunity. Unless I’ve totally misunderstood it, in WC you want to close to a shorter range than a boxer likes, and keep the range short till it’s decided. If you successfully close to an uncomfortable range for your opponent you don’t want to have to start all over again from outside.

This means that WC as a gameplan and style doesn’t suit being attacked by a mobile attacker who probes you in a ring-type situation. It’s much more about defending yourself against someone who is fighting because he’s pssed off like someone else said in the thread. You wait alert for the attack, deflect/counter, keep going, he’s down.

That said, I also enjoy sanshou type sparring since I have tons to learn there as well. It’s non-compliant and unpredictable and there are a million mistakes to make. Even with big gloves on I’ve been trying to sidestep and do a kind of tansao as one way of bringing som WC thinking into it.

15

Take some time out, work the basics, train something else.

You might come back in a year or two with a new insight into WC, you might find something that suits you better, either way is just fine.

Id say there are two primary things to understand: unless your school is an exception (and it sounds like it is not, given your frustrations) the curriculum will only get more specialised on fine sensitivity drills from hereon in, and if you dont feel you have a good grounding that will be of no help in a real situation.

Secondly, as sad as it is to admit, there is a cult mindset prevalent in WC. If you keep looking within for an answer people will just bounce you around, from one ‘real’ method to another. I say step outside of that community for a little while and then reexamine your material from a truly objective viewpoint.

I could blather on about what i feel is the ‘real’ WC and how to train it, but theres an excess of that already. If anybody is deluded enough to care what i have to say PM me.

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[QUOTE=sunfist;713921]Take some time out, work the basics, train something else.

You might come back in a year or two with a new insight into WC, you might find something that suits you better, either way is just fine.
[/QUOTE]

I always enjoy taking a little time off to think, or train in something else and then my WC always improves in some way.

Good tip.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

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UltimateWingChun…

Well said!

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[QUOTE=SavvySavage;713612]When it comes to “real” fights you have to ask yourselves one question: Are you a person that walks into fights or away from fights? Many of the people on this forum, who advocate “real” training over traditional training fall into the category of those who walk into fights.

Tell me I’m wrong[/QUOTE]

You’re wrong.:o

I’m one of those on this forum who advocates ‘real’ training over traditional and I personally know others on this forum who share that sentiment and none of them are the ‘type’ that ‘walk into fights’. Personally, I have ‘walked away’ and talked myself away from ten times as many conflicts as has resulted in violence.:cool:

Granted, I can’t brag about having a load of real fight experience, but at least I have simulated fight experience.:wink:

And, BTW, those others I mentioned are golden people to know and it has nothing to do with martial experience.:slight_smile:

19

amanjury , from my experience of many ‘real’ fights [aka delivering the punch]compared to our sparring or whatever …usually what you and I will do in the gym is overkill ..the missing MAJOR FACTOR being the results of IMPACT to your partners head…more often than not a single shot to the head will stop someone , I am 6’ 1 185lbs so can focus quite a wallop :smiley: when i say stop i mean give someone second thoughts about getting so close to you …as for wrestling , its a valuable addition to going down , something i used in dark nightclubs when fighting groups and you just lose track of what the hells going on and suddenly you have a guy in a headlock…comes naturally from a couple of years doing judo / wrestling in school. Our chisao can get WAY to complicated trapping arms that in reality will be attached to a body lying 5-6 ft away , usually holding onto the area you just touched:rolleyes:
I have walked away from a lot in the nyc area because my own guide line is to ‘reflect like a mirror’ so if I see an image of an attack …:wink: otherwise its just words/water off a ducks back.
So my point being ! even if you dont hit people for real training, do an extrodinary amount of wall bag /heavy bag / focus mitts etc… bottom line in any fight is to be able to deliver a strong punch moving in balance,etc…you will be surprised at the simplicity of it after all the forms chisao jong sparring …oh thats it ! all these years and all I had to do was THAT lol !!!:smiley:

20

[QUOTE=k gledhill;714331]amanjury , from my experience of many ‘real’ fights [aka delivering the punch]compared to our sparring or whatever …usually what you and I will do in the gym is overkill ..the missing MAJOR FACTOR being the results of IMPACT to your partners head…more often than not a single shot to the head will stop someone , I am 6’ 1 185lbs so can focus quite a wallop :smiley: when i say stop i mean give someone second thoughts about getting so close to you …as for wrestling , its a valuable addition to going down , something i used in dark nightclubs when fighting groups and you just lose track of what the hells going on and suddenly you have a guy in a headlock…comes naturally from a couple of years doing judo / wrestling in school. Our chisao can get WAY to complicated trapping arms that in reality will be attached to a body lying 5-6 ft away , usually holding onto the area you just touched:rolleyes:
I have walked away from a lot in the nyc area because my own guide line is to ‘reflect like a mirror’ so if I see an image of an attack …:wink: otherwise its just words/water off a ducks back.
So my point being ! even if you dont hit people for real training, do an extrodinary amount of wall bag /heavy bag / focus mitts etc… bottom line in any fight is to be able to deliver a strong punch moving in balance,etc…you will be surprised at the simplicity of it after all the forms chisao jong sparring …oh thats it ! all these years and all I had to do was THAT lol !!!:D[/QUOTE]

I’m not sure I understand your point (not dissagreeing with any of your statements, just…), possibly you missed mine.:o

BTW, I’m 6’1", 215 lbs. I’m sure, unless you’ve got the ‘secret’ punching technique (wink, wink…nudge, nudge…), that your punches are about the same as mine.